Avodah Zarah 8b — the Talmud in English

Therefore,

this is what he shall do:

every thirty days

after the hilula [the joy of the wedding],

whether he told him

the gentile that he is making this feast

because of the hilula, and whether he did not tell him, it is forbidden

to participate in his feast, because presumably he is making the feast because of the wedding, and throughout all the days of the hilula he offers sacrifices to idols.

From here onward,

after thirty days, if

he told him

the gentile that this feast is

because of the hilula—

it is forbidden. And if he did not tell him, “because of the hilula,”

but merely invites him,

it is permitted.

It is permitted, for then it is not clear that he offers sacrifices to idols.

And the Gemara explains: when he tells him “because of the hilula,” until when does the hilula continue, so that it is forbidden to participate?

And when he tells him,

when he indeed tells him

“because of the hilula”—

until when?

Until when is it forbidden?

Rav Pappa said: Until twelve months of the year.

Twelve months of the year, and no longer.

And now the Gemara discusses: from when is it forbidden before the day of the hilula?

And at the outset,

before the wedding, from when do we suspect that his feast is for the sake of the wedding,

from when is it forbidden

to participate in his feast?

Rav Pappa said in the name

of

Rava: Once they cast,

from the time that they cast

barley

barley

into the asinta,

into a trough in order to make beer, as the beginning of his preparations for the feast.

And we raise an objection to what they said, that after twelve months it is permitted if he did not tell him that the feast is because of the wedding:

And

when

after twelve months of the year

after twelve months of the year,

it is permitted,

is it permitted?!

But

behold, we find that

Rav Yitzhak, son of Rav

Marten of

arrived

at the house of

the house of

that gentile, after twelve months of the year, and he heard him

and Rav Yitzhak heard him

giving thanks,

that he was giving thanks to his idol,

and he did not eat

Rav Yitzhak with him.

Behold, even after twelve months they still give thanks to idols?!

And we answer:

different

is the matter with

Rav Yitzhak, son of Rav Mesharsheya,

since

he is an important person,

and the gentile rejoices with him greatly; therefore he gave thanks to his idol, but for an ordinary person it is permitted.

We learned in our Mishna:

and Kratessim.

After the Gemara brought a beraita to explain “Kalenda” and “Saturnalia,” which were taught in the Mishna, the Gemara comes to explain “Kratessim.”

What are Kratessim?

Rav Yehuda said that Shmuel said: The day on which Rome seized the monarchy,

when they fought with the Greeks and defeated them, and ruled over the entire world. And they celebrate this day and offer sacrifices on it to their idols.

And we object: how can you say that it is the day on which Rome seized the monarchy?—

And

behold,

it was taught in a beraita: Kratessim and the day on which Rome seized the monarchy

are forbidden for three days before them.

And it is thereby established that Kratessim and the day on which Rome seized the monarchy are two separate matters!

And we answer:

Rav Yosef said:

indeed,

Rome experienced two seizures. One in the days of Cleopatra the queen,

Cleopatra, queen of Alexandria, with whom the Romans fought and whom they defeated, and from whom they seized the Egyptian monarchy.

And one that it seized

Rome

in the days of the Greeks,

from the Greeks; and these two days serve for them as days of idolatrous festival.

And the Gemara recounts the seizure by Rome of the monarchy of the Greeks. When

Rav Dimi

arrived

from the Land of Israel to Babylonia,

he

said:

Thirty-two battles,

thirty-two battles [wars]

the Romans fought

the Romans made

with the Greeks,

with the Greeks,

and they could not overcome them,

and they did not defeat them,

until they joined Israel with them,

for the Romans joined the Israelites with them,

and thus they stipulated with them,

and this is what the Romans stipulated among themselves with the Israelites: When we defeat the Greeks together,

if a king comes from us,

if a king from among us, the Romans, arises,

from among you will be the governors,

from you we will appoint the governors of the provinces.

If a king comes from among you,

and if a king from among you arises,

from among us will be the governors,

from us the governors of the provinces will arise.

And the Romans sent to the Greeks,

the Romans sent messengers to the Greeks, saying:

Until now we have acted in battle,

until now we have fought among ourselves in battle, and there is neither victor nor vanquished.

Now let us act by judgment,

now let us see with whom justice lies!

And similarly the Romans presented a parable to the Greeks:

A pearl and a precious stone—which of them shall make a base

a seat

for

to set in it

its fellow?

They sent back to them,

the Greeks to the Romans:

A pearl,

which is not so important, shall make a base

for a precious stone!

And again the Romans sent to the Greeks:

“A precious stone and an inakh”

[a shoham stone, which is exceedingly precious],

which of them shall make a base for its fellow?

The Greeks said to them:

A precious stone

shall make a base

for the “inakh”!

And again the Romans sent to the Greeks:

“An inakh and a Torah scroll—which of them shall make a base for its fellow?”—

The Greeks said to them:

The inakh for the Torah scroll!

They sent back to them

the Romans to the Greeks:

If so,

[even though you are important in your own eyes],

we have a Torah scroll,

we have a Torah scroll with us,

and

the sons of

Israel are with us,

they are on our side, and therefore you must submit to us!

They subdued them,

the Romans subdued the Greeks.

Twenty-six years

twenty-six years

they stood by their faithfulness toward Israel,

the Romans maintained their faithfulness to the people of Israel and did not enslave them, but

from here onward,

after this period,

they enslaved them,

they betrayed their faithfulness and enslaved the Israelites under them.

And the Gemara explains:

At the outset,

at first, when the Romans maintained their faithfulness,

what did they expound?

What source did they find in the Torah from which to expound that they should maintain faithfulness with the Israelites?

And in the end,

when they betrayed them,

what did they expound?

At the outset they expounded

at first they expounded from what is stated in the Torah [Genesis 33], that Esau, the forefather of Edom [the Romans], said to Jacob:

“Let us travel and go, and I shall go opposite you.”

Let us go together equally, and let us honor one another!

And in the end they expounded,

from what Jacob answered Esau [there]:

“Let my lord please pass before his servant,”

that Jacob crowned Esau as a prince who walks at the front.

And the Gemara brings a statement in the name of Rabbi Yosef [and he is Rabbi Yosef ben Halafta, author of the book “Seder Olam” concerning the history and order of the years], to prove that for twenty-six years the Romans maintained their faithfulness to the Israelites.

Twenty-six years,

twenty-six years

that they stood by their faithfulness toward Israel,

that the Romans maintained their faithfulness to the Israelites—

from where do we know it?

For Rav

Kahana

said:

When Rabbi Ishmael son of Rabbi Yosei fell ill, they sent to him

the Sages:

Rabbi! Tell us two or three things that you told us in the name of

your father,

Rabbi Yosei, concerning the history of the people of Israel!

He said to them:

This is what I received from my father:

a.

One hundred eighty years before the Temple was destroyed

the second one,

the

rule of

the wicked kingdom

Rome

spread over Israel.

b.

Eighty years before

the

Temple was not yet destroyed, they decreed

the Sages

impurity upon the land of the nations and upon glass vessels.

c.

Forty years before

the

Temple was not yet destroyed, the Sanhedrin was exiled

from its place in the Chamber of Hewn Stone in the Temple,

and it sat for itself in the shops,

on the Temple Mount.

And before the Gemara proves from these statements that for twenty-six years the Romans maintained their faithfulness, the Gemara explains for what purpose the Sanhedrin was exiled.

For what halakhic purpose?

For what purpose did they do this?

Rav Yitzhak bar Avdimi said: To say that they did not judge cases of fines.

They abolished the sitting of the Sanhedrin and did not judge cases of fines [such as the laws of payment of the fine for rape and seduction, and the thirty of a slave], which are judged only by judges with semikha.

But the Gemara objects: Do you think that in order to judge cases of fines they require the Sanhedrin sitting in the Chamber of Hewn Stone?

Cases of fines—you might have thought that?!

After all, only three judges with semikha are required, wherever they are?

And the Gemara brings a statement of Rav Yehuda to prove that even after the destruction of the Temple, and even outside Jerusalem, they judged cases of fines:

But Rav Yehuda said that Rav said: Indeed, let that man be remembered for good—and Rabbi Yehuda ben Bava was his name—for if not for him, the laws of fines would have been forgotten from Israel!

[as will be explained].

And before Rav Yehuda continues to recount the story of Rabbi Yehuda ben Bava, the Gemara objects to what he said: if not for him, the laws of fines would have been forgotten from Israel:

Forgotten?! Let them study them!

If they were forgotten, they could be restored through Torah study, and there were several Torah scholars in his generation; so what was Rabbi Yehuda ben Bava’s greatness?

And we answer:

Rather,

his intention was to say:

“The laws of fines were abolished” from Israel.

For cases of fines are judged only by a court of judges with semikha, each man from his teacher, back to Moses our teacher; and in the days of Rabbi Yehuda ben Bava the Sages refrained from ordaining their students, and he risked his life for this, and by his merit the chain of semikha was not severed.

And Rav Yehuda continues to recount in the name of Rav:

The wicked kingdom

Rome

issued a decree,

after the destruction of the Temple:

“Anyone who ordains—

shall be killed!” And “anyone who is ordained—

shall be killed!” And “a city in which they ordain—

shall be destroyed!” And “the boundary

of two thousand cubits around

the city in which they ordain—

shall be uprooted!”

What did Rabbi Yehuda ben Bava do

so that semikha would not be abolished from Israel?—

He went and sat between two great mountains, and between two great towns, between two Shabbat boundaries, between

the city

of Usha and

the city

of Shefar'am,

so that the Romans would not destroy the city and would not uproot the boundary,

and he ordained there five elders,

Sages. And these were they:

Rabbi Meir and Rabbi Yehuda

ben Ila'i,

and Rabbi Yosei

ben Halafta,

and Rabbi Shimon

bar Yohai,

and Rabbi Elazar ben Shamua.

And the amora

Rav Avya adds

to this tradition: also

Rabbi Nehemia.

When they recognized them,

when

the

enemies

the Romans heard about this,

he said to them

Rabbi Yehuda ben Bava to the five [six] Sages:

My sons! Run!

Flee from the Roman troops.

They said to him: Rabbi! And you, what will become of you?

He said to them:

I cannot flee, but

behold, I am cast before them like a stone that has no one to turn it over.

They said,

the Sages recounted:

the Roman troops did not move

from there

until they drove into his body three hundred

iron spears

spears

and made his body

pierced

like a sieve.

Behold, even after the destruction they judged cases of fines, and even outside Jerusalem. Why, then, did Rav Yitzhak bar Avdimi say that the Sanhedrin was exiled to the shops so that they would not judge cases of fines?

And we answer:

Rav Nahman bar Yitzhak said: Do not say,

do not say that they did not judge

“cases of fines,” but

they did not judge

“capital cases”

[as will be explained].

What is the reason?

What is the reason that they were exiled, and what benefit was there in their exile? After all, it is permitted to judge capital cases in a small Sanhedrin in every city?

Since they saw,

when the Sages of the generation saw, forty years before the destruction,

that they were numerous,

that

murderers

were unable to judge them,

they would not have enough time to judge them,

they said,

the Sages of the generation:

It is better that we be exiled,

it is preferable that we be exiled

from place to place

from the Chamber of Hewn Stone to outside it,

so that we will not be able to impose liability,

so that we would not sentence the murderers to death.

That is to say, they do not judge capital cases even in the small Sanhedrin in every city and tribe, except when the Great Sanhedrin sits in the Chamber of Hewn Stone. Therefore they were exiled, so that they would not be able to judge capital cases even in any small Sanhedrin.

And from where do we learn this, that if the Great Sanhedrin does not sit in the Chamber of Hewn Stone, they do not judge capital cases?

For it is written

[Deuteronomy 17], in the section of the rebellious elder, which concerns capital cases,

“And you shall act according to the matter that they tell you from that place.”

And we expound:

This teaches that the place is determinative

in making the defendant liable. And if the Sanhedrin is not there, they do not judge capital cases.

And now the Gemara returns to prove that for twenty-six years the Romans maintained their faithfulness. The proof is from what we learned in the following beraita, which contradicts what Rabbi Yosei says: that one hundred eighty years before the destruction of the Temple the Romans ruled over Israel. And when we resolve the contradiction, we will see that indeed for twenty-six years they maintained their faithfulness. And we object: Is it that

only one hundred eighty

years before the destruction of the Temple the monarchy of Rome spread over Israel—

and no more?!

and not earlier than this?!

But Rabbi Yosei son of Rabbi taught

[and he is the aforementioned Rabbi Yosei, author of “Seder Olam”]:

[the Rabbi Yosei mentioned above, author of Seder Olam] taught: