Yoma 22b (כב:) — the Talmud in English

Or perhaps, outside

the

cubit of the foundation and the cubit of the sovev, meaning that the four cubits are measured in relation to the floor of the courtyard adjacent to the foundation of the altar, and on the ramp they extend to a distance of six cubits from the top of the altar?

the four cubits are measured in relation to the floor of the courtyard adjacent to the foundation of the altar, and on the ramp they extend to a distance of six cubits from the top of the altar?

And we conclude:

The matter stands unresolved!

We learned in the Mishna:

And if the two were equal, the supervisor would say to them: “Point.”

A tanna

taught in a beraita: He would say to them:

“Extend your fingers for counting.”

And we raise an objection:

Why not count them themselves?

Why did they count the kohanim’s fingers rather than the kohanim themselves, by their heads?

And we answer:

This supports Rabbi Yitzḥak.

For Rabbi Yitzḥak said: It is forbidden to count the Jewish people even for the sake of a mitzva.

As it is written

with regard to Saul:

“And he counted them with pebbles”

with pieces of pottery. Each person cast a shard of pottery before him, and he counted the shards. Thus, it is forbidden to count the people themselves.

Rav Ashi challenged this: From where do you know that this “pebbles” is an expression referring to pieces

of pottery [shards]?

Perhaps it is the name of a city,

the name of the city where he counted them?

As it is written: “And they found Adoni-Bezek”?

And we answer:

Rather, from here

it is evident that it is forbidden to count the Jewish people, for it is written:

“And Saul heard the people

[an expression of proclamation]

and counted them by means of lambs,”

as he commanded that each person take a lamb from the king’s flock, and the lambs were counted.

Rabbi Elazar said: Whoever counts the Jewish people violates a negative commandment, as it is stated: “And the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured.”

Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak said: He violates two negative commandments.

As it is stated

in that verse: “which

cannot be measured and cannot be counted.”

Rabbi Shmuel bar Naḥmani said: Rabbi Yonatan posed a contradiction

and raised an apparent contradiction between the verses:

It is written: “And the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea,”

implying that they do have a number.

And it is written

:

“which cannot be measured or counted”,

indicating that they have no number because of their multitude—!?

And Rabbi Yonatan answers:

It is not difficult:

Here, when Israel fulfill the will of the Omnipresent,

then they have no number.

Here, when they do not fulfill the will of the Omnipresent,

then they do have a number.

Rabbi said in the name of Abba Yosei ben Dostai: It is not difficult:

Here, when they are in the hands of man,

for when they are in human hands, it is impossible to count them because of their multitude.

Here, when they are in the hands of Heaven,

for when they are in the hands of Heaven, they can be counted.

Rabbi Nehilai bar Idi said in the name of Shmuel: Once a person is appointed leader over the community,

he

becomes wealthy.

For

initially,

before Saul became king,

it is written: “And he counted them with pebbles”,

with broken pottery shards.

And ultimately,

when he became king,

it is written: “And he counted them with lambs”,

which were all taken from his flock.

And we object:

But perhaps

the lambs were

his own,

as each person brought one from his house?

And we answer:

If so, what is the significance of the matter?!

What did the verse come to teach us? Rather, it must necessarily be saying that he became wealthy after he became king.

It is written that when Saul went to war against Amalek: “And Saul came to the city of Amalek

and contended in the valley.”

Rabbi Mani said: Over the matter of the valley!

For, as it were, he argued with the Holy One, blessed be He, over the matter of the valley—that is, concerning the heifer whose neck is broken, which is performed in an unplowed valley.

When the Holy One, blessed be He, said to Saul: “Go and strike Amalek.”

Saul said

:

What

about killing

a single person—the Torah said: Bring a heifer whose neck is broken!

All these people,

whom we have killed,

all the more so

we should bring an atonement offering.

Therefore, he left the choicest of the sheep and cattle in order to sacrifice them as offerings of atonement [Rabbeinu Hananel].

And if a person sinned—

what sin did the animal commit?

And if the adults sinned—

what sin did the minors commit?

A Divine voice went forth and said to him: “Do not be excessively righteous”!

And when Saul said to Doeg: “You turn and strike the priests

in the city of Nob, because they had given shelter to David,

a Divine voice went forth and said to him: “Do not be excessively wicked”!

Rav Huna said: How unconcerned and untroubled

is the person who need not fear or worry about any evil, but can remain secure and confident,

the man whose Master assists him,

one whom the Holy One, blessed be He, helps.

For

Saul

failed only

in

one sin,

and it cost him dearly—

he was punished for it with death and the loss of his kingship.

Whereas

David

failed

in two,

and it did not cost him dearly—

he was not punished at all!

And we explain:

What was Saul’s one sin? The incident involving Agag,

as he did not kill Agag, king of Amalek, as he had been commanded by God.

And we object:

But there is

also

the incident involving Nob, the city of the priests,

when Saul killed them all?

And we answer: Already

concerning the incident involving Agag,

which occurred earlier,

it is written: “I regret that I made Saul king.”

And regarding what we said,

David in two—

what were they?

The first was the incident involving

Uriah,

the Hittite, when David ordered that he be stationed at the fiercest point of the battle so that he would be killed.

And

the second was the incident of

incitement,

when David counted the people of Israel and thereby caused a plague to come upon them.

“Incitement”—from the wording of the verse: “And the anger of the Lord continued to burn against Israel, and He incited David against them, saying: Go, count Israel.”

And we object:

But there is also the incident involving Bathsheba,

when he came to her while she was the wife of Uriah?

And we answer:

There,

indeed,

he was punished for it,

as he was punished for that matter.

For it is written: “And he shall restore the lamb fourfold.”

He was stricken through his four children—

a.

The child,

who was born to Bathsheba from that union, died.

b.

Amnon,

whom Absalom killed because he had raped Tamar.

c.

Tamar,

who was raped by Amnon.

d.

And Absalom,

who was killed during David’s lifetime.

And we object: But

there,

in the incident of the incitement,

he was also punished for it.

For it is written: “And the Lord sent a plague upon Israel, from morning until the appointed time”—!?

And we answer:

There, he was not punished in his own person,

as it was not he himself who was punished, but the people of Israel.

And we object:

There,

in the incident involving Bathsheba,

he was also not punished in his own person,

but through his children? And we answer:

Indeed,

he was

punished in his own person

for that act.

For Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav: David was afflicted with leprosy for six months.

And the Sanhedrin withdrew from him, and the Divine Presence departed from him,

because of the incident involving Bathsheba.

For it is written: “Let those who fear You return to me, and those who know Your testimonies”,

as David prayed at length that he be healed of his leprosy and that the Sanhedrin return to him.

And it is written: “Restore to me the joy of Your salvation”,

as he prayed that the Divine Presence return to him.

And we object:

But Rav said: David accepted slander,

concerning Mephibosheth, son of Saul, from Ziba, Mephibosheth’s servant, who claimed that Mephibosheth sought to rebel against David and reign in his place.

Thus David had another sin for which he was not punished?

And we answer: Rav Huna holds as follows, when he says, “David in two, and it did not cost him dearly”—

in accordance with Shmuel, who said: David did not accept slander

concerning Mephibosheth, as explained in tractate Shabbat [56a].

And

another explanation may be offered:

Even according to Rav, who said that David accepted slander,

there is no difficulty for Rav Huna. For

he was punished for it

for this sin.

For Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav: When David said to Mephibosheth, “I said, you and Ziba shall divide the field”,

having confiscated half of his field and given it to Ziba,

a Divine voice went forth and said to him: Rehoboam and Jeroboam shall divide the kingdom!

This was punishment measure for measure: Just as you unjustly deprived Mephibosheth of his inheritance, so the kingdom will be torn from your descendants and divided between your grandson Rehoboam and Jeroboam son of Nebat.

It is written:

“Saul was one year old when he became king.”

Rav Huna said: Like a one-year-old who has not tasted the taste of sin.

Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak objected to him: But say that he was like a one-year-old soiled with mud and excrement,

as he was exceedingly humble and did not insist on his own honor, as it is written: “If I have not composed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child upon his mother” [Tosafot Yeshanim]?

They showed him

from Heaven

to Rav Naḥman

bar Yitzḥak

a terrifying vision in his dream,

as angels of fear alarmed him in his dream because he had not spoken in sufficiently respectful language about Saul.

Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak said

:

I have offended you,

I spoke against you more than was proper,

bones of Saul son of Kish!

He again saw

once more

a terrifying vision in his dream,

because he still had not honored him properly, as explained below.

He again

said: I have offended you, bones of Saul son of Kish, king of Israel!

Rav Yehuda said in the name of Shmuel: Why did the kingship of the house of Saul not endure

for many years?

Because there was no blemish in him,

in the lineage of his family, and there was concern that the kings from his descendants might become arrogant over Israel.

David, however, had a blemish in his family lineage, as he descended from Ruth the Moabite.

For Rabbi Yoḥanan said in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Yoḥai: A leader is appointed over the community only if a box of vermin

in his family lineage

hangs behind him.

This is so

so that if his mind becomes haughty,

becoming arrogant,

they say to him: Turn around and look behind you!

Turn around and see what hangs behind you.

Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav: Why was Saul punished,

in that he failed in the sin for which the kingship was taken from him?

Because he waived his honor

at the beginning of his reign, thereby revealing that he was unfit to rule.

As it is stated: “And the worthless men said: How will this one save us? And they despised him and did not bring him a tribute

when he was chosen as king.

And he acted as though he were deaf.”

And it is written: “And Nahash the Ammonite went up and encamped against Jabesh-gilead.”

And it is stated subsequently that after Saul defeated Nahash the Ammonite, the Israelites sought to put to death the worthless men who had said in wonderment, “Shall Saul reign over us?” And Saul said, “No man shall be put to death on this day.”