Yoma 22b — the Talmud in English

Or perhaps, outside

outside of

the cubit of the foundation and the cubit of the surrounding ledge,

for the four cubits are measured in relation to the floor of the courtyard adjacent to the foundation of the altar, and on the ramp they extend to a distance of six cubits from the top of the altar?

And we conclude:

Teyku!

We learned in the Mishna:

And if the two were equal, the appointed official says to them: Point out.

The tanna

in a beraita: He would say to them:

Take out your fingers for counting.

We raise an objection:

But why not count them themselves?

Why did they count the fingers of the kohanim and not the kohanim themselves, by their heads?

And we answer:

This supports Rabbi Yitzhak.

For Rabbi Yitzhak said: It is forbidden to count Israel even for the sake of a mitzva.

For it is written

concerning Saul:

“And he counted them with pottery shards”

with fragments of pottery. Each one cast a fragment of pottery before him, and he counted the fragments. Thus, it is forbidden to count the people themselves.

Rav Ashi challenged him: From where is it established that this “pottery shard” is an expression of scattering

from the expression of fragments [of pottery]?

Perhaps it is the name of a city,

the name of the city where he counted them?

As it is written: “And they found Adoni-bezek”?

And we answer:

Rather, from here

it is proven that it is forbidden to count Israel: For it is written:

“And Saul heard the people”

[an expression of proclamation]

“and counted them with lambs,”

for he commanded them that each one should take a lamb from the king’s flock, and the lambs were counted.

Rabbi Elazar said: Whoever counts Israel transgresses a negative commandment, as it is stated: “And the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured.”

Rav Nahman bar Yitzhak said: He transgresses two negative commandments.

As it is stated

in that verse: “which

cannot be measured and cannot be counted.”

Rabbi Shmuel bar Nahmani said: Rabbi Yonatan raised a contradiction

he raised the difficulty that there is apparently a contradiction between the verses:

It is written: “And the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea,”

which implies that they have a number.

And it is written

on the other hand:

“which shall not be measured and shall not be numbered”,

and it implies that they have no number because of their multitude

Rabbi Yonatan interprets the verse according to its plain meaning: that they will have no number because of their multitude, and not as a prohibition, as above. Maharsha. And Rabbi Yonatan answers:

It is not difficult:

Here, when Israel do the will of the Omnipresent,

then they have no number.

Here, when they do not do the will of the Omnipresent,

then they have a number.

Rabbi said in the name of Abba Yosei ben Dostai: It is not difficult:

Here, at the hands of man,

for at the hands of man it is impossible to count them because of their multitude.

Here, at the hands of Heaven,

for at the hands of Heaven it is possible to count them.

Rabbi Nehilai bar Idi said in the name of Shmuel: Once a person is appointed leader over the community,

he

becomes wealthy.

For

initially,

before Saul reigned,

it is written, “And he counted them with pebbles”

of earthenware shards.

And in the end,

when he reigned,

it is written, “And he counted them with lambs”,

which were all taken from his flock.

And we object:

And perhaps

the lambs were

his own,

for each one brought one from his house?

And we answer:

If so, what novelty is there in the matter?!

What did the verse come to inform us? Rather, you are forced to say that it means that he became wealthy after he reigned.

It is written, when Saul went out to war against Amalek: “And Saul came to the city of Amalek

and he contended in the valley.”

Rabbi Mani said: Over the matter of the valley!

For, as it were, he argued with the Holy One, blessed is He, over the matter of the valley—that is, concerning the heifer whose neck is broken, which is broken in a rugged valley.

When the Holy One, blessed is He, said to Saul: “Go and strike Amalek.”

Saul said

:

And what,

concerning the killing of

one person, did the Torah say: Bring a heifer whose neck is broken!

All these persons,

whom we have killed,

all the more so

that we need to bring atonement.

And therefore he left the best of the sheep and the cattle in order to offer them as offerings for atonement [Rabbeinu Hananel].

And if a person sinned—

what did the animal sin?

And if adults sinned—

what did the minors sin?

A heavenly voice went forth and said to him: “Do not be excessively righteous”!

And when Saul said to Doeg: “You, turn and strike the priests”

in the city of Nob, because they had given shelter to David,

a heavenly voice went forth and said to him: “Do not be excessively wicked”!

Rav Huna said: How much is the man who neither feels nor senses,

he need not fear, nor worry about any evil, but can remain confident and secure,

a man whose Master assists him,

one whom the Holy One, blessed is He, assists.

For

Saul

stumbled only in

one

sin,

and it cost him,

for he was punished for it with death and the loss of his kingship.

Whereas

David

stumbled

in two—

and it did not cost him,

he was not punished at all!

And we explain:

What is Saul’s one [sin]? The incident of Agag,

for he did not kill Agag, king of Amalek, as he had been commanded by the Lord.

And we object:

But there is also

also

the incident of Nob, the city of the priests,

for Saul killed them all?

And we answer: Already

concerning the incident of Agag,

which occurred beforehand,

it is written: “I regret that I made Saul king.”

And as for what we said,

David, in two—

what are they?

The first, the incident of

Uriah,

the Hittite, for David commanded that he be placed at the front of the strongest battle so that he would be killed.

And

the second, the incident of

incitement,

for David counted the people of Israel and thereby caused a plague to come upon them. ["

“Incitement”—from the wording of the verse, “And the anger of the Lord continued to burn against Israel, and He incited David against them, saying: Go, count Israel”"].

And we object:

But there is also the incident of Bathsheba,

for he came upon her when she was the wife of Uriah?

And we answer:

There,

indeed

they exacted payment from him,

for he was punished for it.

For it is written, “And he shall pay the lamb fourfold”.

For he suffered through his four children—

a.

The child,

who was born to Bathsheba from that intercourse, died.

b.

Amnon,

Absalom killed him because he had violated Tamar.

c.

Tamar,

who was violated by Amnon.

d.

And Absalom,

who was killed during David’s lifetime.

And we object: Behold,

there,

in the incident of the incitement,

they also exacted payment from him.

For it is written, “And the Lord gave a plague upon Israel, from the morning until the appointed time”!?

And we answer:

There they did not exact payment from his body,

for he himself was not punished, but rather the people of Israel.

And we object:

There,

in the incident of Bathsheba,

they also did not exact payment from his body,

but rather from his children? And we answer:

Indeed,

indeed

they exacted payment from his body,

for that same act.

For Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav: David was afflicted with leprosy for six months.

And the Sanhedrin separated from him, and the Divine Presence departed from him,

because of the incident of Bathsheba.

For it is written, “Let those who fear You return to me, and those who know Your testimonies”,

for David prayed so much that he should be healed of his leprosy and that the Sanhedrin should return to him.

And it is written, “Restore to me the joy of Your salvation”,

for he prayed that the Divine Presence should return to him.

And we object:

But Rav said: David accepted slander,

about Mephibosheth, son of Saul, from Ziba, Mephibosheth’s servant, who said that he sought to rebel against David and reign in his place.

It follows that David had another sin for which he was not punished?

And we answer: Rav Huna holds as the one who said, “David, in two, and it did not cost him”—

in accordance with Shmuel, who said: David did not accept slander

about Mephibosheth, as explained in tractate Shabbat [56a].

And

it may further be said that

even according to Rav, who said that David accepted slander,

it is not difficult for Rav Huna. For

they exacted payment from him

for this sin.

For Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav: When David said to Mephibosheth, “I said: You and Ziba shall divide the field”,

for he confiscated half his field from him and gave it to Ziba,

a heavenly voice went forth and said to him: Rehoboam and Jeroboam shall divide the kingship!

As a punishment measure for measure: Just as you unjustly deprived Mephibosheth of his inheritance, so the kingship will be torn from your descendants and divided between your grandson Rehoboam and Jeroboam son of Nebat.

It is written

“Saul was a year old when he became king.”

Rav Huna said: Like a one-year-old who has not tasted the taste of sin.

Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak raised an objection to him: And say: Like a one-year-old who is soiled with mud and excrement,

for he was exceedingly humble and did not insist upon his honor, as it is written, “If I have not made myself equal and quieted my soul like a weaned child upon his mother” [Tosafot Yeshanim]?

They showed him

they showed him

to Rav Naḥman

bar Yitzḥak from Heaven

a frightening vision in his dream,

for fearsome angels frightened him in his dream because he had not spoken with clean language concerning Saul.

He said

Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak:

I have offended you,

I spoke against you more than was proper,

bones of Saul son of Kish!

поскольку, как будет сказано далее, он всё ещё не оказал Шаулю должного почёта.

He again saw

again he saw

a frightening vision in his dream,

because he had still not honored him properly, as follows.

He returned and

said: I have offended you, bones of Saul son of Kish, king of Israel!

Rav Yehuda said in the name of Shmuel: Why was the kingship of the house of Saul not continued

for many days?

Because there was no blemish in him,

in the lineage of his family, and there was concern lest the kings from his descendants become haughty over Israel.

But David had a blemish in his family, for he came from Ruth the Moabite.

For Rabbi Yoḥanan said in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Yehotzadak: One appoints a leader over the community only if a basket of reptiles

in his family lineage

is hanging behind him.

So that

if his mind becomes haughty toward him,

to become haughty,

they say to him: Turn backward!

Turn around and see what is hanging behind you.

Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav: Why was Saul punished,

for he stumbled in the sin on account of which the kingship was taken from him?

Because he waived his honor

at the beginning of his kingship, and thereby revealed concerning himself that he was not fit to reign.

As it is stated: “And worthless men said: What can this one save us? And they despised him, and they did not bring him a gift

when he was chosen as king.

And he was as one who kept silent.”

And it is written: “And Nahash the Ammonite went up, and encamped against Jabesh-gilead.”

And it is stated afterward that, after Saul defeated Nahash the Ammonite, the Israelites sought to kill the worthless men who had said in the form of a question, “Is Saul to reign over us?” And Saul said, “No man shall be put to death on this day.”