Sukkah 5a — the Talmud in English

And it was taught in a beraita: Rabbi Yosei says: The Shekhina never descended below,

to the lower world,

and Moses and Elijah never ascended to the heights, as it is stated [Tehillim 116:16],

Psalms 116:16,

“The heavens are heavens of the Lord, but the earth He gave to human beings.”

If so, how is it possible that the Shekhina spoke with Moses above the cover of the Ark, since the Shekhina never descended to the lower world? Rather, from here you learn that from a height of ten handbreadths [which is the place of the cover of the Ark], the place is considered a different domain, and it is not only the domain of human beings.

And likewise, a sukka must be up to a height of ten handbreadths, for these are a person’s “domain.”

The Gemara raises an objection:

But

since

the Shekhina did not descend below? But is it not written [Exodus 19:20],

Exodus 19:20,

“And the Lord descended upon Mount Sinai”?!

And the Gemara answers: The verse does not mean that the Holy One, blessed is He, descended literally to the earth. Rather, He descended

to above ten handbreadths

from the earth.

The Gemara raises an objection:

But is it not written [Zechariah 14:4],

Zechariah 14:4,

“And His feet shall stand on that day upon the Mount of Olives”?!

And the Gemara answers: The verse does not mean that He descended literally upon the Mount of Olives; rather,

above ten

handbreadths.

The Gemara raises an objection:

But

since

Moses and Elijah did not ascend to the heights? But is it not written [Exodus 19:3],

Exodus 19:3,

“And Moses ascended to God”?!

And the Gemara answers: The verse means that they ascended to a place that is

below ten

handbreadths from the upper heavens. This place, too, is designated for human beings, and is not solely the domain of the Shekhina, unlike those ten handbreadths of the upper heavens.

And it is explained that there are three separate domains: (a) a height of ten handbreadths immediately adjacent to the earth, which is the place that the Holy One, blessed is He, designated for His creatures; (b) ten handbreadths immediately adjacent to the upper heavens, which are the place of the Shekhina, and no person ever ascended there; (c) the space between them. And there, although it is a place of the Shekhina, Moses and Elijah merited ascending.

The Gemara raises an objection: But did Elijah not ascend to the heights?

But is it not written [II Kings 2:11],

II Kings 2:11,

“And Elijah ascended in a storm to the heavens”?!

And the Gemara answers: Elijah ascended only

to below ten

handbreadths beneath the upper heavens.

The Gemara raises an objection: How is it possible to interpret the matter as meaning that Moses did not ascend literally to the heights?

But is it not written [Job 26:9]

concerning Moses our teacher, when he ascended to the heavens,

“He grasps the face of the throne; He spreads His cloud over it.” And

concerning this

Rabbi Tanhum said: This teaches that the Almighty spread some of the radiance of His Shekhina and His cloud over him.

That is, the Holy One, blessed is He, covered Moses with the radiance of His Shekhina in order to protect him from the angels, who protested and said: What is one born of a woman doing among us? [And he expounded the word “parshaz” as an acrostic: peresh ziv, “He spread radiance.”] If so, it is clear that Moses ascended to the heights?!

And the Gemara answers: There, too, the meaning is that he ascended

to below ten

handbreadths from the upper heavens.

The Gemara raises an objection:

In any event, it is written, “He grasps the face of the throne,”

and the throne is certainly located in the upper heavens?!

The Gemara explains:

It was extended and extended for him,

it descended and extended

the throne down to ten

handbreadths below the upper heavens, which are the end of the upper domain,

and he grasped it

Moses at its extreme end, so that his hand did not enter within the ten handbreadths.

Now the Gemara returns to explain the derivation from the Ark and the cover of the Ark that the height of a domain is ten handbreadths:

Granted, as for the Ark,

we know that its height was

nine

handbreadths

, as it is written [Exodus 25:10]

Exodus 25:10,

“And they shall make an Ark of acacia wood, two and a half cubits its length, and a cubit and a half its width, and a cubit and a half its height,”

and this concerns a cubit of six handbreadths.

But as for the cover of the Ark,

whose height was

one handbreadth, from where do we know this?

The Gemara explains: We learn this matter

from that which Rabbi Hanina taught: For all the vessels that Moses made for the Tabernacle, the Torah gave their measurement of length, their measurement of width, and their measurement of height.

But

the cover of the Ark

only

its measurement of length and its measurement of width did the Torah give,

but

its measurement of height—

its height—

it did not give,

and from where shall we know its measurement?!

Rather,

go out and learn from

the

smallest measurement

that is stated concerning the vessels,

as it is stated [Exodus 25:25],

Exodus 25:25,

“And you shall make for it—

for the table—

a rim of one handbreadth around,”

a raised border of one handbreadth around the table.

Just as there,—

the measurement of the table’s rim is

one handbreadth; so here,

the height of the cover of the Ark is

one handbreadth.

The Gemara raises an objection: Why do we learn the measurement of the height of the cover of the Ark from the rim of the table, which is only an ornament made to beautify the table?

And let us learn from

the measurement of the

vessels themselves,

whose measurement is greater?!

And the Gemara answers: This is a principle in the methods of deriving interpretations from the Torah:

If you have grasped the greater, you have not grasped; if you have grasped the lesser, you have grasped!

Whenever something encompasses a greater and a lesser possibility, if you have grasped the lesser, you have grasped well, for certainly it is not less than this; and if it is found that you should have grasped more, they will add to you. But if you have grasped the greater, you have not grasped, for if you should have grasped the lesser, they will take from you what is in your hand. Therefore, even what is in your hand is not considered yours, for it is possible that nothing will remain in your hand.

And likewise, when learning one matter from another, one must learn the lesser measurement that certainly must exist.

And therefore, we learn from the rim of the table, whose measurement is one handbreadth, and not from the vessels themselves, whose measurement is greater.

The Gemara raises an objection: If indeed one must learn the smallest measurement,

let us learn from the tzitz,

whose measurement is smaller than that of the table’s rim?!

For it was taught in a beraita: The tzitz was like a kind of gold plate, and it was two fingerbreadths wide,

which is approximately half a handbreadth.

And it was encircled

it encircled

from ear to ear

of the High Priest.

And written upon it were two lines,

two rows:

the letters yod-heh above,

in the upper row,

and “holy” followed by lamed below,

in the lower row

And Rabbi Eliezer son of Rabbi Yosei said: I saw

the tzitz

in Rome,

where they had placed it in their treasuries,

and “Holy to the Lord” was written upon it in one line,

and not in two rows?!

And if so, it is difficult: Why do we not learn from the tzitz that the measurement of the cover of the Ark is two fingerbreadths?

And the Gemara answers:

One derives a vessel from a vessel, but one does not derive a vessel from an ornament,

as is the case with the forehead plate, which is one of the eight garments of the Kohen.

The Gemara raises an objection:

And let us learn

the measurement of the height of the cover of the Ark

from the rim—

of the Ark, or of the altar, or of the table’s rim—

for the Master said: A rim,

its measurement is

the slightest amount?!

And the Gemara answers:

One derives a vessel from a vessel, but one does not derive a vessel from an accessory of a vessel,

namely, from the rim, which is an ornament, since a rim is not a vessel in its own right, but only an ornament for the Ark.

The Gemara raises an objection:

If so, the rim

of the table

is also an “accessory of a vessel,”

for it was made to adorn the table with it; so how do we learn from it the height of the cover of the Ark?!

The Gemara explains:

Its rim

of the table

was below,

and it was not made upon the table; rather, it was placed from leg to leg, the tabletop rested upon it, and it was not made as an ornament.

The Gemara raises an objection:

This works according to the one who says that its rim was below

the tabletop

was,

and according to him it is possible to learn the cover of the Ark from the rim.

But according to the one who says that its rim was above,

on top of the table

, what is there to say?

For according to him, the rim was made only as an ornament; and instead of learning from the rim, learn from the rim of the Ark?!

And the Gemara answers:

Rather, one derives a matter for which the Torah gave a measurement,

the cover of the Ark, which has a measurement of length and width,

from a matter for which the Torah gave a measurement,

the rim, whose measurement is one handbreadth.

And the tzitz and the rim of the Ark should not prove otherwise, for the Torah gave them no measurement

at all. For the rim’s measurement is the slightest amount, and even the tzitz has no measurement by Torah law; and what is required—to make it two fingerbreadths wide—is only rabbinic.

Rav Huna said: From here

we derive that the height of the cover of the Ark is one handbreadth,

as it is written [Leviticus 16:14],

Leviticus 16:14,

“Upon the face of

the eastern face of the cover of the Ark,” and a “face”

of a person is

not less than one handbreadth.