Sanhedrin 69b — the Talmud in English

And behold, concerning the third law it is said: “And they are liable on her account because of a married woman

and

this is difficult:

why, say

there is reason for concern

perhaps

she is an ailonit

[a barren woman],

and

the betrothal with which her father betrothed her afterward is a mistaken betrothal, because

on the understanding that

on the condition that she is unable to bear children,

he did not betroth [as is the law when it is found that his wife is an ailonit (Yevamot 2a)] and she is not a married woman.

And granted, if in capital cases one follows the majority—the majority of women are not ailoniyot—therefore her betrothal is a valid betrothal, and they are liable on her account because of a married woman; but if one does not follow the majority, why should they make the one who has intercourse with her liable to death? [Granted, concerning an ordinary married woman, it is possible to say that they are liable to death only if it becomes clear that she is not an ailonit, because she has already given birth; but concerning a minor, it is not applicable to say so].

Rather,

is it

not

because

we say: Go after the majority, and the majority of women are not ailoniyot?

And the Gemara rejects this:

No,

there is no proof from here, and in truth it is possible that in capital cases one does not follow the majority, and indeed this is not a capital case;

and what

is the meaning of

“he is liable on her account”

that it teaches

in the Mishna:

A sin-offering,

if he had intercourse with her unwittingly, as is the law of all those liable for karet; and with regard to the laws of offerings, one follows the majority, unlike capital cases, in which one does not follow the majority.

Concerning this rejection we raise an objection: Is it not stated in the Mishna, concerning the seventh law: “If one had intercourse with any of the forbidden relations stated in the Torah,

they are put to death on her account”—

does it teach this?

And included in this are also the forbidden relations forbidden to him because of her betrothal, such as his father-in-law and his wife’s son, and they put him to death for intercourse with her, despite the possibility that her betrothal is a mistaken betrothal, as above.

And it follows that one follows the majority in capital cases.

And we answer: Its meaning is not the forbidden relations forbidden to him because of her betrothal, but rather

when he had intercourse with

her actual relatives, such as

her father,

and only because she is three years old and fit for intercourse is he liable to death. And not because of her marriage.

And we raise an objection:

But—

“if one had intercourse with one of

“

all

the forbidden relations,” does it teach?!

And it is not specifically her own relatives.

Rather,

the Gemara retracts this rejection—

Nevertheless, it cannot be compelled from this Mishna that one follows the majority in capital cases, because

here, with what are we dealing?

The Mishna is speaking of a case in which, even if she is found to be an ailonit, her betrothal would not be a mistaken betrothal; and this is possible in a case

that he accepted her upon himself,

that when her husband betrothed her, he accepted upon himself that the betrothal was decisive, and he desired her even if she were found to be an ailonit.

And according to this rejection, they become liable to death on her account specifically in such a case; but ordinarily, indeed, they are not liable to death, because perhaps she will be found to be an ailonit, and in capital cases one does not follow the majority.

The Gemara returns to discuss whether a minor can father children.

The Sages taught:

A woman

who engages in licentious play

[an expression of licentiousness] with her minor son, and he

performed initial penetration with her,

the minor performed initial penetration, which is the completion of intercourse.

The School of Shammai says:

His intercourse is intercourse, and even if she does not become liable to death, such as when the witnesses did not warn her, nevertheless

it disqualifies her from the priesthood,

as the law of a woman who is a zona.

And the School of Hillel declares her fit,

for the priesthood, because the intercourse of a minor is not considered intercourse.

Concerning which minor are they speaking?

Rav Hiyya, son of Rabbah bar Nahmani, said in the name of Rav Hisda.

And some say

there is one who transmitted this teaching:

Rav Hisda said in the name of Zeiri:

Everyone agrees—

concerning a boy of nine years and one day, that his intercourse is intercourse,

and it is an explicit Mishna (Niddah 45a), and it is the continuation of the aforementioned Mishna: “A minor of three years.”

And likewise, everyone agrees—

that below the age of eight his intercourse is not intercourse,

because we have found no proof for this matter.

They disagreed—

the School of Shammai and the School of Hillel—

only concerning a boy of eight.

For the School of Shammai holds: We derive

and learn

from the earlier generations,

who fathered children at eight years of age, as the Gemara will prove.

And the School of Hillel holds: We do not derive from the earlier generations.

The Gemara explains:

And from where do we know that the earlier generations fathered children,

where do we find that in the earlier generations they fathered children at eight years of age?

The Gemara brings proofs from the account of Bathsheba, that several generations succeeded one another within a short period; and from the calculation it emerges that they fathered children at eight years of age.

The sequence of events:

It is stated in the Book of Samuel that King David saw Bathsheba from the roof of his house and married her. And the Lord sent Nathan the prophet to David, and said to him: “Behold, I am raising evil against you from your household,” and indeed, after several years, his son Absalom rebelled against him.

And two years before Absalom’s killing of Amnon—which led to Absalom’s rebellion—Bathsheba’s son Jedidiah was born, and he was Solomon.

Ahithophel, who was David’s adviser, joined Absalom in his rebellion, and finally, after Hushai the Archite thwarted Ahithophel’s counsel, he strangled himself and died.

This Ahithophel was the father of Eliam; Eliam was the father of Bathsheba, Solomon’s mother.

It follows from this that three generations were born to Ahithophel before his death. [And below the calculation of the years will be explained.]

If you wish to say,

if you would say,

from what is written (chapter 18): King David sent to inquire who Bathsheba was. And they answered him: “

And who was that “Eliam”? In the chapter (23) where David’s warriors are listed,

it is written: “Eliam son of Ahithophel the Gilonite.”

Now the Gemara explains how old Solomon was at the time of Absalom’s rebellion.

And it is written: “

And she bore a son and called his name Solomon, and the Lord loved him.

And He sent through Nathan the prophet and called his name Jedidiah, for the sake of the Lord.”

And Solomon’s birth (chapter 12) was before Absalom killed Amnon.

And

so

it is written (chapter 13): “

And it came to pass after two years, and they were shearing for Absalom,”

And as a result of this Absalom fled to Geshur. How long did he remain in Geshur?

And it is written (there):

“And Absalom fled and went to Geshur, and he was there three years.”

After the three years of his exile, David brought him back, following the counsel of Joab, who sent the woman of Tekoa; and although he brought him back, he did not appear before the king.

How long did Absalom remain in Jerusalem from the time of his return until his rebellion?

And it is written (chapter 14):

“And Absalom dwelt in Jerusalem two years, and he did not see the king’s face.”

And then the rebellion broke out—

And it is written (chapter 15)

[from the time that the Children of Israel asked Samuel the prophet to appoint a king over them]

and Absalom said to the king: Let me go, please, and I will fulfill my vow that I vowed to the Lord in Hebron.”

And he rebelled.

“And Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not carried out, and he saddled the donkey and arose and went to his house, to his city, and he gave orders to his household and strangled himself and died.”

[And at that time Solomon was seven years old. How so? Two years until Amnon was killed, three years of Absalom’s being in Geshur, and two years of his dwelling in Jerusalem—there are seven years.]

How old was Ahithophel when he died?

And it is written

in Psalms (55), in the chapter in which King David laments his departure from Jerusalem because of his enemies, and says there concerning Ahithophel: “And you, a man equal to me, my master and my acquaintance, who together we sweetened counsel, in the house of God we walked amid the multitude.” And at the end of the chapter he curses them and says:

they will not reach half their days.

And indeed, the Holy One, blessed be He, heard his prayer, and his enemies, men of blood and deceit, did not reach half their days, which are seventy years, as it is stated (Psalms 90): “The days of our years among them are seventy years.”

And it was taught: All the years of Doeg

the Edomite, who informed Saul against David,

were only thirty-four, and those of Ahithophel

who betrayed David and joined Absalom,

were only thirty-three.

Indeed, the Holy One, blessed be He, heard his prayer, and his enemies, men of blood and deceit, did not reach half their lifespans, which is seventy years, as it is stated (Psalms 90): “The days of our years are seventy years.”

And now we shall come to the calculation of the years. In thirty-three years, three generations were born to Ahithophel, and Solomon—the third generation—was seven years old at the time of his death, as stated above.

How many

years

were there for them

Ahithophel lived—

thirty-three,

thirty-three,

subtract

remove from them

seven

years,

that Solomon was

at the time of his death.

There remain

there remained

twenty-six,

twenty-six years.

Subtract

remove from them

two years

two years

for three pregnancies,

for three gestation periods of three generations. How so?

Even if we grant them the gestation period of a woman who gives birth at seven months, and for each new pregnancy the days of menstruation and the days of purity,

together they are three times eight, which are twenty-four months—two years—for three pregnancies.

two years

There remained twenty-four years for three generations;

it is found

the calculation

that each and every one of them—Ahithophel to Eliam, Eliam to Bathsheba, and Bathsheba to Solomon— fathered at eight

fathered a child when he was eight years old.

And this is the proof that in the earlier generations they fathered children at eight years of age.

The Gemara does not accept this proof—

From what

is this proof?

Perhaps

it is possible that

both of them

Ahithophel and Eliam

at

being sons of

nine fathered, and

what emerged for you from the calculation—that in twenty-four years three generations fathered children—is because

Bathsheba gave birth

to Solomon

at

being a daughter of

six

six years?

And why do we prefer to say so?

Because a woman is healthy,

a woman’s usual condition is to be healthy and to conceive quickly.

Know,

that a woman conceives quickly,

for indeed she had a child from the outset,

behold, she bore a child before Solomon, and that child died (chapter 12). Thus, she preceded in giving birth.

Rather,

the Gemara brings another proof that in the earlier generations they fathered children at eight years of age.

From here.

It is stated in the Torah (Genesis 11):

“These are the generations of Terah: Terah fathered Abram, Nahor, and Haran.” And

according to the order in which they were enumerated, it follows that

Abraham was older than Nahor

by at least

one year, and Nahor was older than Haran

by at least

one year; it follows that Abraham was older

by at least

two years than Haran—

And

it is further written (there):

“And Abram and Nahor took wives for themselves; the name of Abram’s wife was Sarai—

And whose daughter was Sarai?

It is stated later in that same verse: “And the name of Nahor’s wife was Milcah, daughter of Haran, father of Milcah and father of Iscah.”

And Rabbi Isaac said: Iscah—

this is Sarah. And why was she called Iscah? Because she sees

she sees

with the holy spirit, and that is what is written (there, 21):

“Whatever Sarah says to you, listen to her voice”;

and it does not say, “listen to her,” but rather “to her voice,” that is, to the voice of the holy spirit within her. This teaches that Abraham was subordinate to Sarah in prophecy.

Another matter:

Why was she called

Iscah?

Because everyone gazed

looked

at her beauty,

Pharaoh and Abimelech.

And

by how many years was Abraham older than Sarah, the daughter of his brother Haran?

And it is written (there, 17):

“And Abraham fell upon his face and laughed, and said in his heart: Shall one who is a hundred years old be born?

And if Sarah, being ninety years old, shall give birth?!”

And we come to the calculation:

How much older was Abraham than Sarah?

Ten years. And

how much was he

older than her father

than her father Haran?

Two years.

It is found

it emerges:

when Haran fathered Sarah—

he fathered her at eight

he fathered her when he was eight years old.

than her father,

Here is proof that in the earlier generations they fathered children at eight years of age.

The Gemara does not accept this proof.

From what

did you derive this calculation?

Perhaps Abraham was the youngest of his brothers,

he was the youngest of the brothers, and his brother Haran was older than he, and he did not father Sarah when he was eight.

And

why was Abraham enumerated first—not because he was the eldest of the brothers, but according to their wisdom

according to their importance

it enumerates them,

because he was the most important of them.

The Gemara brings proof that the verses sometimes enumerate people according to their order of importance, and not according to the order of their ages.

Know, for the verse enumerates them according to their wisdom—

As it is written (Genesis 6):

“And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah fathered Shem, Ham, and Japheth.”

And apparently—if we say that they were enumerated according to the order of their ages—it follows:

Shem was older than Ham by one year, and Ham was older than Japheth by one year; it follows: Shem was older than Japheth by two years.

Could this be possible?

And

is it not

written (there, 7):

“And Noah was six hundred years old, and the Flood was water upon the earth.”

And

it is further

written (there, 11):

“These are the generations of Shem: Shem was one hundred years old, and he fathered Arpachshad two years after the Flood.”

Was Shem

one hundred years old

two years after the Flood? Is it not so that—if Shem was the eldest of the sons of Noah—he was born one hundred years before the Flood, and it follows that two years after the Flood

he was one hundred and two years old

he was one hundred and two years old?!

Rather,

you are forced to explain that Shem was not the eldest of the sons of Noah, and he was not born one hundred years before the Flood, but rather ninety-eight years before the Flood; and the reason he was enumerated first is that

according to their wisdom it enumerates them—

here too,

concerning Abraham and his brothers,

according to their wisdom it enumerates them.

Was Shem

Rav Kahana said: I stated this teaching

I said this teaching

before

before

Rav Zevid of Nehardea.

He said to me,

Rav Zevid:

You

you

learn it from here

you learned from this calculation that Shem was not the eldest of the sons of Noah, but

if

we

we

teach it from here

we learned this from this verse:

It is stated (there, 10): “

And to Shem also was born, the father of all the sons of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder”;

behold,

Japheth was the eldest of his brothers.

Rather, from where

do we know

that the earlier generations fathered children at eight years of age?

From here.

The Gemara brings a proof from the years of Caleb.

It is written in the section concerning the work of the Tabernacle (Exodus 38): “

And Bezalel, son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah.”

“Hur” was Caleb’s son,

and

so too

it is written (I Chronicles 2):

“And Azubah died, and Caleb took Ephrath, and she bore him Hur.”

And now we shall come to the calculation.

And did Bezalel make the Tabernacle—how old was he?

How old was Bezalel when he made the Tabernacle—

Thirteen years old,

thirteen,

as it is written (there): “

Every man from his work, which they were doing”;

and a man

is called “at least” thirteen years old.

it is written

in I Chronicles 2:

“And Azubah died, and Caleb took Ephrath, and she bore him Hur.”

We can now calculate.

And when Bezalel made the Tabernacle, how old was he?

How old was Bezalel when he made the Tabernacle—

Thirteen

years old,

as it is written

there:

“Every man from his work, which they were doing,”

and a “man” is called at least thirteen years old.

And

when did they perform the work of the Tabernacle?

It was taught: In the first year

after the Exodus from Egypt,

Moses made

with the craftsmen, headed by Bezalel,

the Tabernacle,

in the

second year he erected the Tabernacle,

as it is stated (Exodus 40): “And it was in the second year, in the first month … the Tabernacle was erected.”

And

in that same year

he sent spies.

And

how old was Caleb—who was among the spies?

It is written

in the Book of Joshua (14), when Caleb requested that they allot him the city of Hebron, he said:

“I was forty years old when Moses, the servant of Hashem, sent me from Kadesh-barnea to spy out the land” …

“And now, behold, I am today eighty-five years old.”

From now say:

how old were they

how old was Caleb when Moses sent the spies?

Forty,

forty years old.

Subtract

from them

fourteen

fourteen years

that Bezalel was,

for the year before this he made the Tabernacle, being at that time at least thirteen years old—

There remained for them

there remained

twenty-six

twenty-six years, during which Caleb had enough time to father Hur, Hur to father Uri, and Uri to father Bezalel—

Subtract

from the calculation

two years

two years

of three pregnancies,

as above; behold, twenty-four years for three generations—

It is found

it is found

that each and every one fathered at eight

he fathered in his eighth year.

And this is the proof that in the earlier generations they fathered sons at eight, and from this Beit Shammai learned that the intercourse of a minor of eight is intercourse.

We learned in our Mishna:

A son, and not a daughter.

It was taught: Rabbi said

Shimon:

By rights

according to the reasoning, it would be said

that a daughter should be fit to be like a stubborn and rebellious son.