Niddah 27a — the Talmud in English

If no placenta is attached to them –

we are concerned for another fetus,

and

I apply to them ![](pamud.bmp "

")

the stringency of two fetuses!

For if the fetus of an animal, beast, or bird species was male, we are concerned lest in the placenta there was a female fetus that dissolved; and the woman who gave birth observes fourteen days of impurity as for a female, and the days of purity are reckoned to end at the completion of forty days for the first fetus.

I say: Perhaps the fetus of a placenta dissolved,

for the placenta does not belong to the miscarriage, but to an additional fetus that had been in it and dissolved,

and dissolved

also

the placenta of the fetus

that was born; therefore, even though we saw before us only one child and one placenta, there were two fetuses, and each of them had a placenta.

It is explained in the beraita that there is a circumstance in which a bird is attached to a placenta –

tiyuvta

of Rabbi, who said a statement that is not true!

Rabba bar Sheila said that R. Mattana said that Shmuel said: A.

A.

An incident

occurred involving a woman who gave birth to a live fetus, after which a placenta came out,

and they attributed the placenta to the fetus,

and they were not concerned for another fetus, even when the placenta came out

up to ten days

after the birth!

B.

And they said, “We attribute

the placenta to the fetus”

only with regard to a placenta that comes after the fetus!

For this is the way of a placenta: to come out only after the fetus. But if the placenta comes out before it, we are concerned for another fetus, even when the fetus was born immediately after its emergence.

Rabba bar bar Hana said that Rabbi Yohanan said: An incident occurred, and they attributed the placenta to the fetus up to twenty-three days

and not like Shmuel, who said that they attribute it only up to ten days!

Rav Yosef said to him –

You told us up to twenty-four!

Rav Aha, son of Rav Avira, said that Rabbi Yitzhak said: An incident occurred, and the fetus remained

the twin

after its fellow for thirty-three days! Rav Yosef said to him –

You told us thirty-four!

And the Gemara asks:

This works for the one who says, “A woman who gives birth after nine

months

gives birth at an incomplete time,”

for she does not always give birth at the end of the ninth month of her pregnancy, but gives birth earlier or later;

you can find

such a large difference of thirty-four days between the births. For example: one fetus –

one –

its form was completed at the end of seven

months, and it was then born,

and one –

its form was completed at the beginning of nine

But for the one who says, “A woman who gives birth after nine –

does not give birth at an incomplete time,”

but completes her pregnancy until the end of the ninth month,

what can be said?

For there are sixty days between the end of the seventh and the end of the ninth. And it is impossible to say that both were born in the seventh month, in which everyone agrees that she can give birth at an incomplete time, because even if the first were born on the first day of the seventh month and the second on the last day, there would be only thirty days between them, not thirty-four. And it is impossible to say that one of them was born in the eighth month, because one born in the eighth month does not live?! And the Gemara answers:

Reverse the tradition: thirty-three for the placenta

which came out after a delay of thirty-three days, and they attributed the placenta to the fetus, and

twenty-three for the fetus

whose birth was delayed by twenty-three days after the first, as, for example, when she gave birth to both of them in the seventh month, in which she gives birth at an incomplete time.

Rav Avin bar Rav Adda said that Rav Menahem of Kefar She’arim said—and some say, Beit She’arim: An incident occurred, and one fetus remained after its fellow for three months, and they are sitting before us in the beit-midrash! And who are they? –

Judah and Hezekiah, the sons of Rabbi Hiyya!

And the Gemara objects:

But the Master said, “A woman does not become pregnant and then become pregnant again,”

for the Gemara had supposed that there could be such a large difference between the births only if she became pregnant again during her pregnancy; and the Gemara asks that such a thing is impossible?!

And it answers:

Abaye said –

the two fetuses were formed together in one pregnancy, for

there was one drop, and it divided into two,

and a fetus was formed from each part;

one

had its

form completed at the beginning of

the

seventh

month, and it was then born,

and one at the end

of the

ninth month.

We learned in the Mishna:

A placenta in a house –

the house is impure!

The Sages taught: A placenta in a house –

the house is impure, not because the placenta

itself is a

fetus, but because there is no placenta without a fetus with it

that dissolved inside it, and it renders impure with the impurity of a corpse,

the words of Rabbi Meir!

Rabbi Yose, Rabbi Judah, and Rabbi Shimon –

declare pure!

They said to Rabbi Meir –

Do you not concede that if they took it out

of the house in the placenta

in a bowl,

and transferred it in its entirety

to the outer house

to another house,

that it

the second house

is pure?

He said to them

Rabbi Meir –

Indeed!

That is correct.

They asked him again:

And why

did you render it impure with regard to the inner house and declare it pure with regard to the outer house? After all, everything that was in the first one passed into the second.

Rabbi Meir answered them:

Because it is not!

For the movement of the placenta causes the fetus to dissolve and turn into liquid.

They said to him: Just as it is “not”

remaining in its form

in the outer house, so it is “not” in the inner house,

for the movement of the birth causes it to dissolve before it emerges into the first house.

He said to them: One dissolution is not comparable to two dissolutions,

and only after it was moved again in passing into the second house did it dissolve completely, and it is pure!

Rav Pappa was sitting behind Rav Bibi, before Rav Hamnuna, and

Rav Hamnuna was sitting

and saying: What is the reason of Rabbi Shimon

who said that with a placenta in a house, the house is pure? After all, even if the fetus dissolved, it exists in its entirety, and its law should be like that of the flesh of a corpse that rotted, which renders impure even though nothing of its form remained after the rotting?

And Rav Hamnuna answered:

He holds

Rabbi Shimon –

every impurity into which a different species has become mixed is nullified!

And in the placenta, the blood of the birth became mixed with the dissolved matter of the fetus, and therefore the corpse-impurity of the fetus was nullified.

Rav Pappa said to them –

This is also the reason of Rabbi Judah and Rabbi Yose,

who held like Rabbi Shimon in the beraita! And they agree with him not only in the law, but also in his reason.

Rav Hamnuna and Rav Bibi laughed at him,

and said to him –

What is different

the reason of Rabbi Shimon from the reason of Rabbi Judah and Rabbi Yose? And

it is obvious

that their reason is the same; what novelty is there in your statement?

Rav Pappa said: Even such a matter

that will cause them to smile and mock him,

a person should say it, and should not remain silent before his teacher!

Perhaps within the answer they will tell him the reason for the law.

Because it is said, “If you have acted foolishly

concerning words of Torah –

you will be exalted”!

Your end will be to be exalted!

“And if you have schemed

and remained silent –

hand to mouth”!

Your end will be that you will not know how to answer those who ask!

And the Gemara returns to the main law of Rabbi Shimon, and explains:

And Rabbi Shimon proceeded according to his reasoning

that he declares a placenta pure because of the mixture of the blood of the birth, according to the reasoning that he stated elsewhere.

For it was taught: A ladleful

[a spoonful]

of dust

of a corpse renders impure through impurity of a tent, like a corpse before it rotted. And it is learned from a halakha given to Moses at Sinai that the amount of dust required to render impure differs from that of an intact corpse. It renders impure only in the measure of a full ladleful. And even

if any amount of earth fell into it –

it is impure,

for nothing has been removed from the measure of the dust.

And Rabbi Shimon –

declares pure,

because of the earth that fell into it.

What is Rabbi Shimon’s reason?

After all, the full ladle contains the measure of dust, and the earth of any amount is merely an addition.

Rava found the Sages of the house of Rav sitting and saying –

this is Rabbi Shimon’s reason:

It is impossible that two particles

of earth

not increase upon one particle of dust, and it is thereby lacking!

For at the place where the earth fell, one particle of dust becomes mixed with two particles of earth, and that one particle of dust is nullified by the two particles of earth; that particle of dust is thereby missing from the measure of a full ladleful of dust. And for this reason Rabbi Shimon also declared a placenta pure, because part of the dissolved matter of the fetus is mixed with the blood of the birth and is nullified in it.