Menachot 65b (סה:) — the Talmud in English

And if

according to your statement, that

Moses our Teacher loved Israel, why did he delay them

for Israel

in the wilderness for forty years!?

That is to say: If he led them by way of Mount Seir, they would have traveled for only eleven days; and if he loved them, why did he cause them to travel that route over the course of forty years?

He said to him

that elderly man said to Rabbi Yoḥanan:

Rabbi! Is this how you dismiss me!?

Is this all the proof you have!?

Rabbi Yoḥanan said to

that elderly man:

Fool!

I am dismissing you and brushing you off with straw because you have no proof whatsoever for your words.

Should our complete Torah not be

which has proof for our words,

like your idle conversation

which has no substance? Therefore, I need not prove my words, and I brushed you off with straw.

The Torah states concerning the counting of the Omer [Leviticus 23:15]: “

You shall count for yourselves from the day after the Shabbat, from the day when you bring the Omer of the waving, seven complete weeks they shall be.

Until the day after the seventh week you shall count fifty days, and you shall bring a new meal-offering to the Lord.”

One verse says “

; and:

you shall count fifty days”

and it does not mention weeks. This implies that the counting begins in the middle of a week, and that it is a counting of days, not a counting of weeks, since a week extends only from one Shabbat to the next.

And

by contrast,

one verse says “

seven Shabbatot”

[weeks]

they shall be complete,”

which implies that the counting begins at the beginning of a week, and that it is a counting of complete weeks, from Shabbat to Shabbat.

How

can these two verses be fulfilled?

Here,

the verse “seven complete Shabbatot they shall be” refers to

a Festival day

the first day of Passover

that occurs on Shabbat,

and the counting that begins on the following day is indeed a counting of weeks, beginning at the start of the first week and ending at the end of the seventh week.

Here,

the verse “you shall count fifty days” refers to

a Festival day

the first day of Passover

that occurs in the middle

of a week,

so that the counting begins and ends in the middle of a week, and it is a counting of days—

we have therefore learned that the counting is not fixed from the day after the Shabbat of Creation, but from the day after the first Festival day of Passover. Consequently, the Festival of Assembly at the end of the counting is not fixed for the day after the Shabbat of Creation.

The Gemara gives a mnemonic for the proofs of the tanna’im in the first beraita taught in Megillat Ta’anit, which is cited below:

That of Rabbi Eliezer: “counts.”

Rabbi Yehoshua: “counts.”

Rabbi Yishmael: “gathers.”

Rabbi Yehuda: “below.” A mnemonic.] “

Rabbi Eliezer counts”—

Rabbi Eliezer says: It is not necessary

to use this proof; rather,

it says “

You shall count for yourself,”

the counting depends upon the court,

meaning that it refers to the first Festival day of Passover, whose date depends upon the court, and a person must ask the court when the first Festival day of Passover occurs in order to begin counting—

the Shabbat of Creation is excluded, for its counting is known to everyone,

that is, you cannot say that the counting begins on the day after the Shabbat of Creation, for if so, a person would not need to ask the court when the counting begins. Rather, he would wait until the Shabbat that occurs during Passover and begin counting on the following day.

Rabbi Yehoshua counts:

Rabbi Yehoshua says

another proof:

The Torah says “

Count

twenty-nine

days and sanctify the month,”

as it is stated [Numbers 11:20]: “Until a month of days,” and the Torah says,

“Count days and sanctify the Assembly”;

and these two matters should be learned from one another:

Just as with regard to the month, close to its arrival,

[the arrival of its calculation,]

it is recognizable,

a fixed day for the beginning of the new month, on which the calculation of the days of the month begins—for from the twenty-ninth day [and twelve hours and 793 parts] after the conjunction of the previous month, it is recognizable and known that the calculation of the following month begins—

So too, with regard to the Assembly, close to its arrival it is recognizable,

so too, the calculation of the Assembly [i.e., the beginning of the counting] is recognizable and fixed as beginning on a fixed day, namely, the sixteenth of Nisan. But if the view of the Boethusians were correct, that the Assembly is on the day after the Shabbat of Creation, then the beginning of its calculation would not be recognizable, since sometimes the calculation would begin on the sixteenth and sometimes on another day.

Rabbi Yishmael gathers:

Rabbi Yishmael says

another proof:

The Torah says: Bring the Omer on Passover and the two loaves on the Assembly,

and these two matters should be learned from one another:

Just as there,

the time for bringing the two loaves is

a Festival, and the beginning of a Festival.

So too here,

the time for bringing the Omer is

a Festival

it is

and the beginning of a Festival—

But if the view of the Boethusians were correct, sometimes the Omer would not be brought on a Festival at all, for example, when the first day of Passover occurred on Sunday; or it would not be brought at the beginning of a Festival, for example, when the first Festival day of Passover occurred on one of the other days of the week.

Rabbi Yehuda: “below”:

Rabbi Yehuda ben Beteira says

another proof:

It is stated “

Shabbat”

below

[concerning the eve of the Assembly: “Until the day after the seventh Shabbat you shall count fifty days, and you shall bring a new meal-offering to the Lord,”]

and it is stated “

Shabbat”

above

[“You shall count for yourselves from the day after the Shabbat”]; and these two matters should be learned from one another:

Just as the “Shabbat” mentioned

below

below

[concerning the eve of the Assembly] is

a Festival, and the beginning of a Festival is adjacent to it,

for the Festival of the Assembly occurs on the day after that Shabbat.

So too, the “Shabbat” mentioned

here

here

[concerning the eve of the beginning of the counting] is

a Festival, and the beginning of a Festival is adjacent to it,

meaning that the second day of Passover is adjacent to that Shabbat.

The Sages taught:

The Torah states,

“You shall count for yourselves”;

we have therefore learned:

There shall be a counting for each and every individual,

each and every person is obligated to count. “

You shall count for yourselves

from the day after the Shabbat,”

that is:

from the day after the Festival

the first day of Passover.

Or perhaps it means only the day after the Shabbat of Creation,

which follows the first Festival day of Passover?

Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda, says: It says “

you shall count fifty days”—

all the counts that you count shall consist only of

those

fifty days

that are fixed. That is, the time at which the counting begins always begins on the same day of the month, and the days that you count this year are the same days that you count the following year.

And if you would say that it means the day after the Shabbat of Creation,

that follows the first Festival day of Passover, and the counting begins then—

then

sometimes you find

with respect to the beginning of the counting in the previous year

fifty-one

days. That is, if in the first year the Festival day occurred on Shabbat and you began counting on the following day, whereas in the following year the first Festival day occurred on Friday and you began counting on the day after the Shabbat of Creation, then you delayed the beginning of the counting by one day relative to the previous year, as though you had counted fifty-one days.

And sometimes you find fifty-two

days of counting from the day on which you began counting in the previous year; that is, if the Festival day occurred on Thursday—

and sometimes you find

fifty-three,

if the Festival day occurred on Wednesday; and sometimes

fifty-four

if it occurred on Tuesday; and sometimes

fifty-five

when it occurred on Monday; and

fifty-six

if the first Festival day of Passover occurred on Monday.

Rabbi Yehuda ben Beteira

says: It is not necessary

to use this proof,