Menachot 65b — the Talmud in English

But if

that is as you say, that

Moses our teacher loved the Jewish people, why did he delay them

for the Jewish people

in the wilderness for forty years!?

That is, if he led them through Mount Seir, they would have traveled for only eleven days. And if he loved them, why did he make them travel that route in forty years?

He said to him

that elderly man said to Rabbi Yohanan:

Rabbi! Is this how you dismiss me!?

Is this your entire proof!?

Rabbi Yohanan said to him

to that elderly man:

Fool!

I am dismissing you and brushing you aside with straw because you have no proof at all for your words.

Should our complete Torah

for which we have proof for our words

be like your idle talk

which has no substance? Therefore, I do not need to prove my words to you; I brushed you aside with straw.

The Torah states concerning the counting of the Omer [Leviticus 23:15]: “

You shall count for yourselves from the day after Shabbat, from the day on which you bring the Omer of the waving, seven complete weeks they shall be.”

“Until the day after the seventh week you shall count fifty days, and you shall bring a new meal-offering to the Lord.”

One verse says “

you shall count fifty days”

and it does not mention weeks. This implies that the counting begins in the middle of a week, and that it is a counting of days, not a counting of weeks, since a week extends only from one Shabbat to the next.

And

One verse

says:

“You shall count fifty days,”

and it does not mention weeks. This indicates that the counting begins in the middle of a week and is a counting of days, not a counting of weeks, because a week is only from Shabbat to Shabbat.

But

another verse says:

“Seven complete weeks they shall be,”

which indicates that the counting begins at the beginning of a week and is a counting of complete weeks, from Shabbat to Shabbat.

How can these two verses be reconciled?

the verse “seven complete Shabbatot they shall be” refers to

Here,

the verse “Seven complete weeks they shall be” applies

when the first Festival day

of Passover

falls on Shabbat,

and the counting that begins on the following day is indeed a counting of weeks, beginning at the start of the first week and ending at the end of the seventh week.

Here,

the verse “You shall count fifty days” applies

when the first Festival day

of Passover

falls in the middle of

the week. The counting then begins and ends in the middle of the week, and it is a counting of days—

We have therefore learned that the counting is not fixed from the day after the first Shabbat, but from the day after the first Festival day of Passover. Consequently, the Festival of Assembly at the end of the counting is not fixed for the day after the first Shabbat.

The Gemara gives a mnemonic for the proofs of the tannaim in the first beraita taught in the Scroll of Fasts, which is cited below:

Rabbi Eliezer “counts.”

Rabbi Yehoshua “numbers.” Rabbi Yishmael “gathers.”

Rabbi Yehuda “below.” This is the mnemonic.

“Rabbi Eliezer counts”—

Rabbi Eliezer says: There is no need

for this proof. Rather,

he says

“You shall count for yourself,”

the counting depends on the court,

that is, on the first Festival day of Passover, whose date depends on the court. A person must ask the court when the first Festival day of Passover occurs in order to begin counting—

This excludes the first Shabbat, whose counting is known to everyone,

meaning that you cannot say that the counting begins on the day after the first Shabbat. If so, a person would not need to ask the court when the counting begins; he would simply wait until the Shabbat that falls during Passover and begin counting on the following day.

Rabbi Yehoshua counts:

“Rabbi Yehoshua numbers”:

Rabbi Yehoshua says

there is another proof:

The Torah says: “Count

twenty-nine

days and sanctify the month,”

as it is stated: “Until a month of days” [Numbers 11:20]. And the Torah says:

“Count days and sanctify the Festival of Assembly.”

Let one be learned from the other:

Just as, near the arrival of the month,

[near the arrival of its calculated date,]

a fixed day is recognizable

for the beginning of the month’s count—for beginning on the twenty-ninth day [plus twelve hours and 793 parts] after the new moon of the previous month, it is recognizable and known that the count of the next month begins—

So too, with regard to the Assembly, close to its arrival it is recognizable,

So too, near the arrival of the Festival of Assembly it is recognizable,

and thus the calculation of the Festival of Assembly—that is, the beginning of the counting—is recognizable and fixed as beginning on a fixed day, namely the sixteenth of Nisan. But according to the view of the Boethusians that the Festival of Assembly is on the day after the first Shabbat, the beginning of its calculation is not recognizable, because sometimes the calculation begins on the sixteenth and sometimes on another day.

“Rabbi Yishmael gathers”:

Rabbi Yishmael says

the Torah says: “Bring the Omer on Passover and the two loaves on the Festival of Assembly.”

Let one be learned from the other:

Just as there,

the time for bringing the two loaves is

a Festival, and the beginning of a Festival,

so here,

the time for bringing the Omer is

a Festival

and

the beginning of a Festival—

But according to the view of the Boethusians, sometimes the Omer is not brought on a Festival at all—for example, when the first day of Passover falls on Sunday—and sometimes it is not brought at the beginning of a Festival—for example, when the first Festival day of Passover falls on one of the other days of the week.

“Rabbi Yehuda below”:

Rabbi Yehuda ben Beteira says

there is another proof:

It is stated

“Shabbat”

below

[on the eve of the Festival of Assembly: “Until the day after the seventh Shabbat you shall count fifty days, and you shall bring a new meal-offering to the Lord,”]

and it is stated

“Shabbat”

above

[“You shall count for yourselves from the day after Shabbat”]. Let one be learned from the other:

Just as the “Shabbat” mentioned

below

there

[on the eve of the Festival of Assembly]

is a Festival, and the beginning of a Festival is near it,

since the Festival of Assembly occurs on the day after that Shabbat—

so too, the “Shabbat” mentioned

here

[on the eve of the beginning of the counting]

is a Festival, and the beginning of a Festival is near it,

that is, the second day of Passover is near that Shabbat.

The Sages taught:

The Torah states:

“You shall count for yourselves,”

and we learn:

the counting must be performed by each individual,

each individual is obligated to count. “

each and every person is obligated to count. “

You shall count for yourselves

from the day after Shabbat

,” that is,

from the day after the Festival

of Passover.

Or perhaps it means the day after the first Shabbat,

which follows the first Festival day of Passover?

Rabbi Yosei bar Rabbi Yehuda says: He says

“You shall count fifty days”—

every counting that you perform shall consist only of

those

fifty days

that are fixed. That is, the time when the counting begins must always be on the same day of the month. The days that you count this year are the same days that you count the following year.

And if you say that it means the day after the first Shabbat,

which follows the first Festival day of Passover, and that the counting begins then—

then

sometimes you find

in relation to the beginning of the counting in the previous year

fifty-one

days. That is, if in the first year the Festival day fell on Shabbat and you began counting on the following day, whereas in the next year the first Festival day fell on Friday and you began counting on the day after the first Shabbat, you delayed the beginning of the counting by one day relative to the previous year, as though you had counted fifty-one days.

And sometimes you find fifty-two

days of counting from the day on which you began counting in the previous year, namely, if the Festival day fell on Thursday—

and sometimes you find

fifty-three,

if the Festival day fell on Wednesday; and sometimes

fifty-four

if it fell on Tuesday; and sometimes

fifty-five

when it fell on Monday; and

fifty-six

if the first Festival day of Passover fell on Monday.

Rabbi Yehuda ben Beteira

says: There is no need

for this proof,