Menachot 107a — the Talmud in English

And we answer: Even in the bird-offering

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the crop and the feathers

which do not go up upon the altar, as it is written in the passage of the burnt-offering: “And he shall remove its crop with its feathers, and cast it beside the altar eastward, to the place of the ashes,” and they are absorbed in their place.

And we still raise an objection:

But there are libations, that is, the wine of the libations, all of which they give into the bowls that are upon the altar!?

?

And we answer: The wine of the libations is not burned upon the altar, but

to the channels

at the sides of the altar

they go [

the blood is poured from the bowls into the channels and does not go up upon the altar].

And we still raise an objection:

But there is the meal-offering of libations, which goes up entirely upon the altar, and they do not take a handful from it!?

which goes up entirely onto the altar, and a handful is not taken from it

And we answer: This person did not intend a meal-offering;

since there is a meal-offering from which the priests eat—

it was not decisive for him.

We learned in the Mishna:

“If one says: It is incumbent upon me to bring this gold, he may not bring less than one gold dinar”:

And we raise an objection: From where is it established that this person intended a coin,

and perhaps

he intended a

ingot [

a piece of gold]!?

He said

in explanation,

Rabbi Elazar:

What are we dealing with here? With a case

where he said: “

It is incumbent upon me to bring this

coin

of gold.”

And we still raise an objection:

And perhaps

this person did not intend a dinar, but

small coins [

small coins] of gold!?

He said

in explanation,

Rav Pappa:

People do not make small gold coins [

there is no practice of making gold small coins].

We learned in the Mishna:

“Silver, he may not bring less than a dinar”:

And we raise an objection:

Perhaps an ingot [

perhaps he intended a piece of silver and not a coin]!?

He said

in explanation,

Rabbi Elazar:

In a case such as

where he said: “

It is incumbent upon me to bring a

coin

of silver.”

And we still raise an objection:

And perhaps small coins [

perhaps he intended small coins of silver]!?

He said

in explanation,

Rav Sheshet:

What are we dealing with here?

In a place where silver small coins are not accepted [

in a place where silver small coins circulate in trade].

We learned in the Mishna:

“Copper, he may not bring less than a silver ma’a”:

It was taught: Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov [

disagrees with our Mishna and]

says:

One who says, “It is incumbent upon me to bring copper”:

he may not bring less than

an amount of copper sufficient to make

a small tzinora [

a small fork]

of copper.

And we explain:

For what is it fit [

for what use in the Temple is this tzinora fit], since presumably he did not intend less than something fit for some use at all?

He said,

he explained,

Abaye: They pick out the wicks with it [

they remove their burnt ends from the wicks], and

they wipe with it

the

lamps

of the menorah, removing the ash inside them.

And if he said, “It is incumbent upon me to bring

iron: it was taught:

Others say: One who says “

It is incumbent upon me to bring

iron,”

may not

bring less than

an amount of iron sufficient to make from it

a raven-repeller,”

which are sharp nails that they would place at the top of the roof of the Sanctuary, so that the ravens would not sit there and soil the roof.

And how much

is the measure of the iron?

He said,

he explained,

Rav Yosef: One cubit by one cubit.

There are those who say:

It was taught:

He may not bring less than one cubit by one cubit, and concerning this the question was asked in the

house of study:

For what is it fit?

And in answer

Rav Yosef said: For a raven-repeller.

Mishna:

One who says, “

It is incumbent upon me to bring wine”

for libations by itself: behold, he

may not bring less than three logs

of wine, which is the lesser measure among the libations, for such are the lesser libations of a lamb.

One who says, “It is incumbent upon me to bring

oil”

to offer it by itself: behold, he

may not bring less than a log,

because this measure enables a person to bring the smallest voluntary meal-offering.

Rabbi says: Three logs,

which is the lesser measure among the libations, for this is the measure of oil for the meal-offering of the libations of a lamb; and in the Gemara the reason for their dispute will be explained.

And if one came before us and said, “

I specified—

how much wine or oil—

but

I

do not know what [

how much]

I specified”:

He shall bring—

wine or oil libations—

according to

the measure of the libations of a

day

of the

greatest quantity [

the day on which the greatest quantity of libations is brought], namely, the first festival day of Sukkot that occurs on Shabbat, for he brings wine and oil libations for thirteen bulls, two rams, and eighteen lambs.

Gemara:

The Sages taught:

It is written in the passage of libations a superfluous verse: “Every

citizen

shall do thus with these,” and

this teaches that they may vow to bring wine

by itself.

And how much

may they vow to bring?

Three logs

according to the measure of the libations of a lamb.

And from where is it established that if he wishes to add

to the quantity, for example, to bring five logs, which is not a measure of libations,

he may add,

the verse says: “

It shall be.”

Could he bring less

than three logs?

The verse says: “

Thus.”

We learned in the Mishna:

“Oil, he may not bring less than a log; Rabbi says: Three logs”:

The Gemara asks:

Over what do they disagree,

what is the basis of their dispute, such that according to Rabbi he brings a log, the measure of oil for a voluntary meal-offering, while according to the Sages he brings the lesser measure among the libations?

They stated it

and explained it

before Rav Pappa, the Sages:

In “

derive from it and from it”

and

in “

derive from it and establish it in its place,”

they disagree,

that is, when a certain matter learns a detail of its law from another matter, do we say: Learn from that matter and give it the law of that matter; or do we say: Learn from that matter only that detail which you need to learn, and return it to its place, so that the law of this detail is like the rest of the laws of the matter that is learning?

The Sages hold: Derive from it and from it,

that is: Oil libations that come by themselves are learned from a voluntary meal-offering;

just as one may vow to bring a meal-offering, so too one may vow to bring oil,

for the Torah said concerning a voluntary meal-offering, “And when you bring a meal-offering,” and the word “offering” comes to teach that one may vow to bring oil.

And from it,

that is, since you learn it from a voluntary meal-offering, give it the law of a voluntary meal-offering:

just as a meal-offering is with a log

of oil,

so too oil is with a log.

And Rabbi holds: Derive from it and establish it in its place,

that is, the fundamental law of vowing to bring oil for libations is learned from the meal-offering, concerning which it is said, “An offering”:

just as one may vow to bring a meal-offering, so too one may vow to bring oil; and establish it in its place,

that is, return it to its place, so that the law of vowing to bring oil is

like libations

that come with the offering:

just as libations

have no measure less than

three logs, so too oil is three logs.

Rav Pappa said to them:

If Rabbi learned it from the meal-offering [

if indeed it is as you say, that Rabbi too learned the law of vowing to bring oil from the meal-offering], then

everyone would agree [

they would not disagree] that

one derives from it and from it,

and a log of oil would suffice for Rabbi as for the Sages.

Rather, Rabbi learned it from “

citizen,”

which is stated concerning libations; he

learned it

from there: Just as the verse increases the possibility of vowing to bring wine, so too the verse increases the possibility of vowing to bring oil; and since he learned it from libations, its law is like libations, which have no measure less than three logs of oil.

He said,

he challenged

Rav Huna son of Rav Natan to Rav Pappa:

How can you say this [

how can you say that Rabbi learned the law of vowing to bring oil from libations and not from the meal-offering]!?

But it was taught: “When you bring a

offering of a

sacrifice

meal-offering,”

this teaches that one may vow to bring oil; and how much

may one vow to bring?

Three logs—

And behold,

whom do you hear say three logs?

Is it not

Rabbi

is it not? And

and he brings it [

and it is explicitly stated that he learned his law]

from “

sacrifice,”

and not from libations.

He said,

he conceded

to him,

Rav Pappa to Rav Huna son of Rav Natan:

If it was taught, it was taught, that is, since it was taught as you say, I do not stand by my statement.

«Я уточнил, но не знаю, что именно уточнил: пусть принесёт по мере дня с наибольшим количеством»:

We learned in the Mishna:

“I specified, but I do not know what I specified; he shall bring as on the day of the greatest quantity”:

A tanna

taught in a beraita to explain what the day of the greatest quantity is:

Like the first festival day of Sukkot that occurs on Shabbat.

Mishna:

One who says, “

It is incumbent upon me to bring a burnt-offering,”

shall bring a lamb

male.

Rabbi Elazar ben Azarya says:

He shall bring, if he wishes,

either a turtledove or a pigeon fledgling.

And if one came before us and said, “

I specified

to bring a burnt-offering

from cattle, but I do not know what I specified”:

He shall bring a bull and a calf

males.

And if he said, “I specified to bring a burnt-offering

from the animal, but I do not know what I specified”:

He shall bring a bull and a calf [

that is, a large and a small male from cattle],

a ram and a he-goat [

that is, a large male from sheep and goats],

a kid and a lamb [

that is, a small male from goats and from sheep].

And if he said, “

I specified

to bring a burnt-offering

but I do not know what I specified [

whether cattle or flock]”: