Ketubot 8b (ח:) — the Talmud in English

And the Gemara resolves this:

When that beraita was taught—

the beraita stating that the mourners themselves are also included in the quorum—

it was referring to Birkat HaMazon,

meaning that the mourners join for the zimmun, since they are obligated in mitzvot.

And

when Rabbi Yohanan said

that the mourners are not included in the quorum—

he was referring to the shura,

the line formed around the mourner returning from the grave. He would sit among those standing, and they would comfort him. A shura consists of no fewer than ten people, and the mourner is not included among the ten.

And

we still ask:

But what of that which Rabbi Yitzḥak said in the name of Rabbi Yohanan:

The blessing of bridegrooms is recited in the presence of ten, and the bridegrooms are included in the quorum.

And the “blessing” of mourners is recited in the presence of ten, but the mourners are not included in the quorum.

And this presents a difficulty according to your statement that Rabbi Yohanan spoke only with regard to the shura:

Is there a blessing recited at the shura

—is there such a blessing at the shura?!

On the basis of this objection, the Gemara resolves Rabbi Yohanan’s statement differently:

Rather, when Rabbi Yohanan said

that the mourners are not included in the quorum, he was referring to the blessing of mourners, which they would recite

in the public square

of the city [as will be explained below], at the meal of consolation held for the mourner upon his return from the cemetery. This blessing was recited in the presence of ten, and the mourners were not included in the quorum.

And

we still ask:

But what of that which Rabbi Yitzḥak said in the name of Rabbi Yohanan:

The blessing of bridegrooms is recited in the presence of ten throughout all seven days, and the bridegrooms are included in the quorum.

And the blessing of mourners is recited in the presence of ten “throughout all seven days,” but the mourners are not included in the quorum.

And according to your interpretation of Rabbi Yohanan’s statement, that he spoke only of the public square:

Is there a blessing of the public square “throughout all seven days”?

After all, it is recited only at the meal of consolation held after the burial?!

The Gemara answers: Indeed,

it is possible to find

the blessing of the public square throughout all seven days of mourning

when new faces are present

when new people came to comfort him—his close associates and acquaintances from other places who had heard the report of his bereavement. Their practice was to provide him with a meal in his home, and there they would recite the very same blessing that they would recite at the meal of consolation in the public square. And what is the blessing of mourners?

As in the case of Rav Ḥiyya bar Abba, who was the Scripture teacher of the sons of Reish Lakish

Rav Ḥiyya taught Scripture to the sons of Reish Lakish

and some say: He was the Mishna teacher of the son of Reish Lakish

he taught him Mishnayot—

a

of Rav Ḥiyya bar Abba

young child died,

and he observed seven days of mourning for him.

On the first day, he did not go to him

Reish Lakish did not go to comfort him on the first day of mourning.

On the following day, he led

this is an expression of leadership

Yehuda bar Naḥmani, his interpreter

On the day after the first day, Reish Lakish brought Yehuda bar Naḥmani with him; he was his interpreter, proclaiming his words to the public.

He said to him,

Reish Lakish said to his interpreter:

Rise and say something concerning the child

say words of consolation over the child’s death!

He began and said:

It is written:

“And the Lord saw and spurned them, because of the provocation of His sons and daughters”—

And this is its interpretation:

When a generation’s fathers provoke the Всевышний,

becomes angry with their sons and daughters, and they die,

the sons and daughters

when they are young.

And this is what the verse says: “And the Lord saw”—what the fathers had done.

And there are those who say:

the deceased was not a child; rather,

he was a young man.

And this is what he said to him,

the interpreter recited this verse concerning him:

“Therefore, concerning his young men

of the sinful fathers

the Lord will have no joy, and He will have no compassion on his orphans and widows; for everyone is profane and an evildoer, and every

mouth speaks profanity. Despite all this, His anger has not turned back, and His

hand is still outstretched”—

What is the meaning of “and His hand is still outstretched”?

Rav Ḥanan bar Rav said: Everyone knows why a bride enters the wedding canopy. However, anyone who profanes his mouth and utters profanity from it—even if a favorable decree for seventy years has been sealed for him—is turned from good to evil.

And this is what the verse means by “still”; it is like the word “forever,” meaning that a person’s world is liable to be turned from good to evil.

The Gemara is astonished at Reish Lakish:

He came to comfort him

he came here to comfort him

but he is causing him distress,

telling him that his son died because of his sins!?

And the Gemara explains:

This is what

Reish Lakish

said to him: You are considered worthy of being seized for the sins of the generation,

you are considered worthy Above for you and your children to be seized on account of the generation’s sin.

He said to him,

Reish Lakish said to his interpreter:

Rise and say something

say words

in praise of the Всевышний!

He began and said:

Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe,

the great God in His abundant greatness, mighty and powerful in His awesome deeds, who revives the dead with His word, who performs

great deeds beyond investigation and wonders beyond number,

Blessed are You, Lord, Who revives the dead.

Furthermore,

he said to him,

Reish Lakish said to his interpreter:

Rise and say something concerning the mourners!

The interpreter began

the interpreter

and said:

Our brothers, exhausted and crushed by this mourning, give your hearts to consider this

that everyone dies, and do not weep excessively,

this is an eternal reality; it is a path established since the six days of Creation,

many have drunk, and many will drink,

as was the drinking of the earlier ones, so is the drinking of the later ones. Our brother, the Master of Consolations, will comfort you. Blessed

are You, Lord,

Who comforts mourners.

Abaye said:

Anyone who says something of this sort—

“Many have drunk,” let him say

“many have drunk”!

But

“many will drink,” let him not say

do not say it!

And likewise

“the drinking of the earlier ones,” let him say

let him say, “It is the drinking of the earlier ones”

! But “so

is the drinking of the later ones,” let him not say!

And because of

what Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish said:

And likewise it was taught in the name of Rabbi Yosei: A person should never open

his mouth to Satan.

Rav Yosef said: What is the verse

that teaches that a person should not open his mouth to Satan?

As it is stated: “Had not the Lord of Hosts left us a remnant, we would have almost been

like Sodom, we would have resembled Gomorrah

we would all have been destroyed.””

And

what did the prophet respond to him?

“Hear the word of the Lord, rulers of Sodom

officials whose deeds are like those of Sodom, “listen to the teaching of our God, people of Gomorrah” [this is the adjacent verse in Isaiah].

He said to him: Rise and say something concerning the comforters of mourners!

The interpreter began

the interpreter

and said: Our brothers, practitioners of kindness, descendants of practitioners of kindness, who uphold the covenant of Abraham our father,

our brothers, the Master of recompense will pay

you your recompense. Blessed are You

are You, Lord,

Who pays recompense.

Furthermore,

he said to him: Rise and say something concerning all Israel.

He began and said: Master of the universe! Redeem, save, rescue, and deliver Your people Israel from pestilence, from the sword, from plunder, from blight, from mildew, and from all kinds of calamities that descend upon and come into the world. Before we call, You will answer. Blessed are You

are You, Lord,

Who halts the plague.

Ulla said—and some say that it was taught in a matnita

it is stated in a beraita:

The Sages instituted ten cups in the house of mourning,

in order to give the mourner an abundance of drink, even if he does not wish to drink, as it is stated: “Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to the bitter in spirit”:

Three

cups

before the meal, to open his intestines,

that is, their practice was to eat delicacies before the meal, such as pastries, doughnuts, and fried cakes; while eating those delicacies, they would give the mourner three cups to drink.

Three

cups

during the meal, to soak the food in his intestines.

And four

cups

after the meal,

and these are:

One corresponding to “Who feeds,”

at the end of the blessing of “Who feeds” in Birkat HaMazon, the mourner would drink it, and they would pour him another cup.

And one corresponding to the blessing of the land.

And one corresponding to “Who builds Jerusalem.”

And one corresponding to “Who is good and does good.”

They added four

additional cups, corresponding to four blessings that they would recite:

A cup

—one

of the blessing they would recite

concerning the attendants of

the attendants of

the city,

because the attendants occupied themselves with the dead and with other communal needs.

And one

of the blessing they would recite

concerning the leaders of the city,

who were wealthy and spent their money to bury the poor.

And one

of the blessing they would recite

concerning the Temple,

so that the Всевышний would comfort us through its rebuilding for our mourning over it, as one mourns over the dead.

And one

of the blessing they would recite

concerning Rabban Gamliel,

as will be explained below.

They began drinking and becoming intoxicated,

more than fourteen cups, and

they restored the practice to its original state,

to drink only ten cups.

What is the relevance of Rabban Gamliel?

As it was taught in a beraita: Initially, taking out the deceased for burial was more difficult for his relatives than his death,

because the wealthy would bury the deceased in respectable garments, and, out of shame, the poor would do likewise

until

it became difficult for them and

the poor would abandon

him and flee.

ego i ubegali.

Until Rabban Gamliel came and treated himself without regard for dignity, and they took him out

Rabban Gamliel

in linen garments.

And all the people followed him in taking out the deceased in linen garments.

Rav Pappa said: And nowadays, the world follows the practice of using even a hemp shroud worth one zuz,

nowadays, the practice is to take out the deceased even in hemp shrouds worth only one dinar.