Taanit 4b — the Talmud in English

And there are those who say

Let us say [does one need to say] that the final clause of the Mishna, in which we learned, “One asks for rain only close to the time of rain” — specifically, the words of

shall we say

that the latter clause of the Mishna, in which we learned, “One requests rain only close to the time of rain”—is specifically the statement of

it is the opinion of Rabbi Yehoshua, who says: from the time of its placement?

Rava said: Even if you say

that the matter is in accordance with the method of

Rabbi Eliezer.

For

asking is one matter, and mentioning is another matter.

We learned in our Mishna:

Rabbi Yehuda says: the one who passes before the ark, etc. [On the last festival day of Sukkot, the last one mentions, and the first one does not mention. On the first festival day of Passover, the first one mentions, and the last one does not mention.]

On the last day of the festival, the last one mentions rain, and the first one does not mention it. On the first day of Passover, the first one mentions rain, and the last one does not mention it.

And we raise a contradiction [there is a difficulty concerning this from a beraita, in which we learned as follows]:

from a beraita, in which we learned as follows:

Until when does one ask for rain

at the end of the rainy season?

Rabbi Yehuda says: until

the festival of

Passover has passed.

Rabbi Meir says: until

the entire month of

Nisan has passed.

It follows for us that Rabbi Yehuda’s opinion is that one asks for rain until the end of the festival of Passover. Yet in our Mishna we learned that Rabbi Yehuda’s opinion is that one mentions rain only until the first festival day of Passover!

Rav Hisda said: It is not difficult.

Here,

what we learned, “until Passover has passed” or “until Nisan has passed,” means

to ask

for rain. As we learned there: “Until when does one ask for rain?”

But

here,

what we learned in our Mishna means

to mention

the rain.

And the Gemara continues and explains:

Asking, he asks and proceeds [with regard to asking, one asks and continues asking]

until after Passover, or until the month of Nisan has passed.

But

to mention [with regard to mentioning rain],

rain,

on the first festival day he stops [they stop].

mentioning it.

Ulla said: This explanation of Rav Hisda [this answer of Rav Hisda]

—this answer of Rav Ḥisda—

is difficult [it is difficult],

—it is as difficult

as

as

as

as

smoke to the eyes!

How is it possible to say that they continue mentioning rain after they have stopped asking for it? Is this not a kal va-chomer!

And just as in a place where one does not ask [at a time when they are not yet asking for rain],

namely, on the last festival day of Sukkot, since on a festival day one does not recite the blessing of the years, in which one asks for rain, nevertheless

he mentions

the rain [as Rabbi Yehuda said, that the last one mentions], it is demonstrated that one mentions rain even at a time when it is not yet appropriate to ask for it.

If so,

in a place where one asks

for rain, namely, during the intermediate days of Passover,

is it not the case [is this not a kal va-chomer]

—is this not a

that he should

also

mention

it?!

Rather, Ulla said: There are two tannaim in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda [there are two tannaim who dispute the method of Rabbi Yehuda].

—there are two tannaim who disagree concerning the position of Rabbi Yehuda.

One of them holds that Rabbi Yehuda’s method is that one asks for rain until Passover has passed; if so, all the more so one mentions it until then. This is the method of Rabbi Yehuda mentioned in the beraita.

And one of them holds concerning Rabbi Yehuda’s method that one asks for rain until Passover [and one does not ask during the festival of Passover itself, since one does not recite the blessing of the years on a festival day]. And one mentions it in the morning prayer of the first festival day of Passover, and in the additional prayer one stops mentioning it . This is the method of Rabbi Yehuda mentioned in the Mishna.

The Gemara brings another attempt to answer the difficulty from the Mishna against the beraita.

Rav Yosef said: What is

“until Passover has passed,” which Rabbi Yehuda said in the beraita? His intention is that one asks for rain

until the first prayer leader, who descends

before the ark

on the first festival day of Passover has passed.

That is, the prayer leader who conducts the morning prayer asks for rain, whereas the prayer leader who conducts the additional prayer does not ask for rain.

And these words accord with Rabbi Yehuda’s words in our Mishna concerning mentioning rain: the first prayer leader, who conducts the morning prayer, mentions rain, whereas the latter, who conducts the additional prayer, does not mention it.

And he wondered, and

Abaye said to

Rav Yosef: How is it possible to say this, that the first one who descends before the ark on a festival asks for rain

Is there asking on a festival [does asking for rain on a festival exist]?

For one does not recite the blessing of the years on a festival!

He said to him

Rav Yosef:

Yes.

Indeed, so it is. There is asking for rain on a festival. However, it is not the prayer leader who asks for rain; rather,

the

asks for it

the translator .

For in the sermon that he delivers on the festival, he recites the blessing of the years alone.

Abaye said to Rav Yosef:

Does the translator ask for something that the congregation does not need [for which the congregation has no need]?

For the festival of Passover is not an appropriate time for rain!

Rather, it is clear according to Ulla [the matter is clarified and established: one must say as Ulla said],

that two tannaim are involved, according to Rabbi Yehuda’s method.

The Gemara brings another attempt to answer the difficulty.

Rabba said: What is

“until Passover has passed” —

until the time for slaughtering the Passover-offering has passed.

That is, one asks for rain until midday of the fourteenth of Nisan, which is the end of the time for slaughtering the Passover-offering. But in the afternoon prayer, although one recites a weekday prayer, one does not ask for dew and rain . And one nevertheless continues mentioning rain until the additional prayer of the first festival day of Passover, as we learned in our Mishna.

as at its beginning

And the reason for the matter is that

as at its beginning [as is practiced at the beginning of mentioning and asking for rain],

one practices at its

so

it is practiced at its

end.

Just as at its beginning, he mentions, although he does not ask,

for one mentions rain on the last festival day of Sukkot, while one asks only after the festival,

so

also at its end, he mentions

on the first festival day of Passover,

no longer requests it.

although he already

does not ask.

For they stopped asking from midday of the fourteenth of Nisan.

Abaye said to him:

The matter of its beginning is not comparable to its end!

For

granted

rain at a time when he still does not request it, because

at its beginning, he mentions

the rain at a time when he is not yet asking, because

mentioning is also an appeasement

and conciliation in preparation for

asking [for he still cannot ask, because one does not recite the blessing of the years on a festival]. And it is appropriate to conduct oneself in this way, to appease before the request.

at its

But

? Where is there an act of seeking favor before a request? According to your words, they act in the opposite manner: First they finish requesting rain, and afterward they continue seeking favor! This is without reason. Once he stopped requesting it yesterday, he has demonstrated that rainfall is no longer desirable to him. What reason is there for him to continue mentioning it?!

at its end, what appeasement in preparation for asking is there [where is there appeasement before asking]?

For according to your words, they conduct themselves in the opposite manner: first they finish asking for rain, and afterward they still continue appeasing! This matter has no reason. Since he stopped asking yesterday, he has revealed that the falling of rain is no longer favorable to him. What reason is there for him to continue mentioning it?!

Rather, it is clear [the matter is clear and established] that one must say

Rabbi Asi said that Rabbi Yoḥanan said: The halakha is in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda,

as Ulla.

Rabbi Zeira said to Rabbi Asi: And did Rabbi Yoḥanan say this?

Rabbi Asi said in the name of Rabbi Yohanan: The halakha is in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda,

who holds that one mentions rain from the additional prayer of the last festival day of Sukkot .

Rabbi Zeira said to Rabbi Asi: Did Rabbi Yohanan really say so [did Rabbi Yohanan say this]?

?

But we learned [and yet we learned below]:

“On the third of Marḥeshvan one requests rain.

On the third of Marheshvan one asks for rain.

Rabban Gamliel says: On the seventh of it [of the month of Marheshvan]

one asks for rain.

And Rabbi Elazar said

there in the Gemara:

The halakha is in accordance with Rabban Gamliel.

Indeed, that Mishna speaks of asking for rain, but the Gemara now holds that the time for mentioning and the time for asking are one and the same. It follows for us that the halakha is that one begins mentioning rain only on the seventh of Marheshvan!

Rav Asi said to him,

Rav Asi:

Are you raising one man against another [are you challenging one person from the statement of another person]?! In truth, Rabbi Elazar holds that the halakha is in accordance with Rabban Gamliel, but Rabbi Yohanan holds that the halakha is in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda.

You are challenging one person with another! Indeed, Rabbi Elazar holds that the halakha is in accordance with Rabban Gamliel, but Rabbi Yoḥanan holds that the halakha is in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda.

If you wish, say [if you wish, say as follows]:

:

It is not difficult.

There is no contradiction between Rabbi Yohanan’s ruling of the halakha and Rabbi Elazar’s ruling of the halakha.

For

here,

what Rabbi Elazar said—that the halakha is in accordance with Rabban Gamliel—concerns

asking

for rain. The halakha is that one asks for rain from the seventh of Marheshvan.

Whereas

here,

what Rabbi Yohanan said—that the halakha is in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda—concerns

mentioning.

One mentions rain from the first festival day of Sukkot.

And the Gemara raises a difficulty: How is it possible to say this, that Rabbi Yohanan also holds that one asks for rain only from the seventh of Marheshvan,

yet Rabbi Yohanan said: In the place [that is, at the same time]

that one requests

where one

asks for rain, he also

mentions

it. And according to your words, it follows that he mentions rain even at a time when he is not yet asking for it, since he begins mentioning on the last festival day of Sukkot, but does not ask until the seventh of Marheshvan!

And the Gemara answers:

That

which Rabbi Yohanan said—that in the place where one asks, one mentions—was stated only

From the time one stops requesting rain, namely, on the eve of Passover, one also stops mentioning it. But with regard to beginning, the times for mentioning and requesting are not the same.

with regard to

stopping.

For from the time that one stops asking, namely, on the eve of Passover, one also stops mentioning. But with regard to beginning, mentioning and asking are not equal.

And the Gemara raises a difficulty:

But he said [yet Rabbi Yohanan said]

This indicates that even concerning the beginning of mentioning rain, Rabbi Yoḥanan stated this rule: The times for requesting and mentioning are the same. This is not in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda’s position, according to which one mentions rain from the last day of the festival but requests it only from the following day!

Rabbi Yohanan

explicitly:

When he begins mentioning, he begins asking .

When he stops asking, he stops mentioning.

It follows that even with regard to the beginning of mentioning rain, Rabbi Yohanan stated this principle: asking and mentioning have one time. And this is not in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda’s method, according to which one mentions from the last festival day of Sukkot, but asks only from the following day!

Because of this difficulty, the possibility of answering the difficulty concerning Rabbi Yohanan’s ruling in this manner is rejected.

The Gemara attempts to answer the difficulty in another manner:

Rather, it is not difficult: this

which Rabbi Yohanan said—that from the time one begins mentioning, one begins asking—concerns

us [us, the people of Babylonia].

For since we have grain and produce in the fields throughout the entire month of Tishrei, and if rain falls upon them it will harm them, therefore we do not mention rain until the seventh of Marheshvan, and then we also begin asking.

Whereas

this

which Rav Asi said in the name of Rabbi Yohanan—that the halakha is in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda—concerns

them [them, the people of the Land of Israel],

who harvest the grain in Nisan , and gather it in Tishrei. And since this is so, they mention rain already on the last festival day of Sukkot .

And the Gemara raises a difficulty:

What is different for us [what is different in our case, the people of Babylonia], who begin mentioning and asking only on the seventh of Marheshvan,

because

we have produce in the fields [we have produce in the fields],

?

yet

for them too [also for them, the people of the Land of Israel],

they have

that in Eretz Yisrael rain is mentioned from the last day of the festival, this refers

to a time when the Temple is not standing ,

pilgrims ,

who need to return to their homes outside Jerusalem after the festival of Sukkot, and it is not convenient for them for rain to fall immediately at the end of the festival, because rain damages the roads and makes it difficult for the pilgrims to return to their homes!

And the Gemara explains:

When Rabbi Yohanan said

that in the Land of Israel they mention from the last festival day of Sukkot, this is

when the Temple is not standing ,

when pilgrimage has already ceased.

The Gemara says:

Now that you have arrived at this [now, since you have arrived at this],

that it is necessary to say that the matter concerns a time when the Temple is not standing, it is possible to reconcile the contradiction between the halakhic rulings as follows:

This and that,

the two rulings of the halakha,

according to them

[to them], were stated for the people of the Land of Israel.

And it is not difficult,

for

here,

what we said—that they mention and ask on the seventh of Marḥeshvan—was

when the Temple is standing.

For because of the pilgrims who are still found on the roads, they begin mentioning only on the seventh of Marḥeshvan, since only then do the last of the pilgrims arrive at their homes.

Whereas

here,

what we said—that they begin mentioning already on the last festival day of Sukkot—was

when the Temple is not standing.

Now the Gemara comes to discuss the practice of the people outside the Land of Israel concerning the mentioning of rain.

And we

[and we], the people of Babylonia,

who have two days

[for we practice as do the people outside the Land of Israel, observing two festival days at the end of Sukkot: the eighth, which is possibly the seventh, and the ninth, which is possibly the eighth], according to the view of Rabbi Judah, who says that one mentions on the last festival day of Sukkot,

how shall we act

[how do we act]? On which of them does one mention: on the eighth day, which is possibly the seventh, or on the ninth day, which is possibly the eighth?

Rav said: He begins

to mention

in the Musaf

of the first day [which is the eighth, possibly the seventh], since perhaps this is the last festival day of Sukkot.

And he stops

[and stops mentioning the rains]

in the

prayer of

Mincha,

since perhaps it is truly the seventh, which is an intermediate day of the festival, and it is not the time for mentioning until tomorrow. And he also stops mentioning in the

Maariv and Shacharit

of the second festival day,

and returns

to mention

in the Musaf

of the second festival day.

Samuel said to them: Go out

[go out]

and tell Abba

[my colleague ]:

After you have made

the day that is the eighth, possibly the seventh,

holy

by mentioning in it the might of rains [for one mentions them only from the last festival day of Sukkot], will you return and

make it

[that very day itself, which you have already made holy]

ordinary,

by stopping the mention of the rains in the Mincha prayer?!

How is it possible to practice, on that very day itself, both a practice of holiness and a practice of ordinariness?

Rather, Samuel said:

This is how one should act:

He begins

to mention

in the Musaf

of the eighth day, possibly the seventh,

and

he also mentions

in Mincha

of that same day.

And he stops

mentioning in the prayer of

Maariv and Shacharit

of the ninth day, possibly the eighth,

and again begins

to mention again

in the Musaf.

And since he does not stop mentioning on that very day itself, in the Mincha prayer of the eighth day, which is possibly the seventh, but only on the following day, the matter is not perplexing.