Taanit 4b (ד:) — the Talmud in English

And some say

that this statement should be understood as follows:

shall we say

that the latter clause of the Mishna, in which we learned, “One requests rain only close to the time of rain”—is specifically the statement of

Rabbi Yehoshua, who says that one begins from the time of its placement?

Rava said: You may even say

that the matter is in accordance with the opinion of

Rabbi Eliezer.

For

requesting and mentioning are separate matters.

We learned in our Mishna:

“Rabbi Yehuda says: The one who passes before the ark, etc.”

On the last day of the festival, the last one mentions rain, and the first one does not mention it. On the first day of Passover, the first one mentions rain, and the last one does not mention it.

And he raises a contradiction

from a beraita, in which we learned as follows:

“Until when does one request rain

at the end of the rainy season?”

Rabbi Yehuda says: Until

the festival of

Passover

has passed.

Rabbi Meir says: Until

the entire month of

Nisan

has passed.

Thus, we have that Rabbi Yehuda’s opinion is that one requests rain until the end of the festival of Passover. Yet in our Mishna we learned that Rabbi Yehuda’s opinion is that one mentions rain only until the first day of Passover!

Rav Ḥisda said: This is not difficult.

Here,

when we learned “until Passover has passed” or “until Nisan has passed,” this refers

to requesting

rain, as we learned there: “Until when does one request rain?”

Whereas here,

what we learned in our Mishna refers

to mentioning rain.

The Gemara continues and explains:

One continues requesting

rain—meaning, with regard to requesting, one continues to request—until after Passover, or until the month of Nisan has passed.

But

with regard to mentioning

rain,

on the first day of the festival one stops

mentioning it.

Ulla said: This explanation of Rav Ḥisda

—this answer of Rav Ḥisda—

is difficult

—it is as difficult

as

vinegar is to the teeth, and

as

smoke is to the eyes

!

How can one say that they continue mentioning rain after they have stopped requesting it? Is this not a

kal va-chomer

from a case in which one does not request rain

—at a time when rain is not yet requested—namely, on the last day of the festival of Sukkot? For on the festival one does not recite the blessing of the years, in which one requests rain. Nevertheless, one

mentions rain, as Rabbi Yehuda said, that the last one mentions it. This proves that rain is mentioned even at a time when it is not yet appropriate to request it.

If so,

in a case in which one requests

rain—namely, during the intermediate days of Passover—

is it not the case

—is this not a

kal va-chomer—that he

also

mentions

it?!

Rather, Ulla said: There are two tannaim in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda

—there are two tannaim who disagree concerning the position of Rabbi Yehuda.

One of them holds that Rabbi Yehuda’s position is that rain is requested until Passover has passed, and, if so, all the more so it is mentioned until then. This is the position of Rabbi Yehuda cited in the beraita.

And the other holds, in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda, that rain is requested until Passover—that is, one does not request it during the festival of Passover itself, since the blessing of the years is not recited on the festival. It is mentioned in the morning prayer of the first day of Passover, and in the additional prayer one stops mentioning it. This is the position of Rabbi Yehuda cited in the Mishna.

The Gemara brings another attempt to resolve the difficulty from the Mishna against the beraita.

Rav Yosef said: What does “until Passover has passed”

mean, as stated by Rabbi Yehuda in the beraita? It means that one requests rain

until the first communal prayer leader who descends

before the ark

on the first day of Passover.

That is, the prayer leader who recites the morning prayer requests rain, whereas the prayer leader who recites the additional prayer does not request rain.

And this corresponds to Rabbi Yehuda’s statement in our Mishna concerning mentioning rain: The first prayer leader, who recites the morning prayer, mentions rain, whereas the last one, who recites the additional prayer, does not mention it.

Abaye was puzzled and

said to him, Abaye

said to Rav Yosef: How can one say that the first person who descends before the ark on the festival requests rain?

Is there requesting rain on a festival?

After all, the blessing of the years is not recited on a festival!

He said to him

—Rav Yosef said to him:

Yes.

Indeed, there is requesting rain on a festival. However, it is not the prayer leader who requests rain; rather,

the

meturgeman requests it.

In the sermon that he delivers on the festival, he recites the blessing of the years alone.

Abaye said to Rav Yosef:

Does a meturgeman request something that the congregation does not need

—something that the congregation has no need for? After all, the festival of Passover is not an appropriate time for rain!

Rather, it is clear in accordance with Ulla —it is clarified and established that one must say as Ulla did: There are two tannaim, in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda. The Gemara brings another attempt to resolve the difficulty.

Rabba said: What does “until Passover has passed” mean—

until the time for slaughtering the Paschal offering has passed.

That is, one requests rain until midday on the fourteenth of Nisan, which is the end of the time for slaughtering the Paschal offering. But at the afternoon prayer, although one recites an ordinary weekday prayer, one does not request dew and rain.

“until Passover has passed” —

Nevertheless, one continues mentioning rain until the additional prayer of the first day of Passover, as we learned in our Mishna.

And the reason for this is that

as at its beginning

—as is practiced at the beginning of mentioning and requesting rain—

so

one practices at its

end.

Just as at its beginning, he mentions it even though he does not request it,

for rain is mentioned on the last day of the festival, while it is requested only after the festival,

so

at its end as well, he mentions it

on the first day of the festival of Passover,

even though

he

no longer requests it.

For they stopped requesting it at midday on the fourteenth of Nisan.

Abaye said to him:

The beginning is not comparable to the end!

For

granted,

at its

beginning, he mentions

rain at a time when he still does not request it, because

mentioning is also an appeasement

and a means of seeking favor in preparation for

requesting

—as he still cannot request it, because the blessing of the years is not recited on the festival. It is appropriate to act in this manner, seeking favor before making the request.

But

at its

end, what appeasement before requesting is there

? Where is there an act of seeking favor before a request? According to your words, they act in the opposite manner: First they finish requesting rain, and afterward they continue seeking favor! This is without reason. Once he stopped requesting it yesterday, he has demonstrated that rainfall is no longer desirable to him. What reason is there for him to continue mentioning it?!

Rather, it is clear

—the matter is clarified and established—that one must say

in accordance with Ulla.

Rabbi Asi said that Rabbi Yoḥanan said: The halakha is in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda,

who holds that rain is mentioned beginning with the additional prayer of the last day of the festival of Sukkot.

Rabbi Zeira said to Rabbi Asi: And did Rabbi Yoḥanan say this?

—Did Rabbi Yoḥanan indeed say so?

But we learned

below:

“On the third of Marḥeshvan one requests rain.

Rabban Gamliel says: On the seventh of that month”

—of the month of Marḥeshvan—one requests rain.

And Rabbi Elazar said

there in the Gemara:

“The halakha is in accordance with Rabban Gamliel.”

Although that Mishna is discussing requesting rain, the Gemara now assumes that the time for mentioning and the time for requesting are the same. Thus, we have that the halakha is to begin mentioning rain only on the seventh of Marḥeshvan!

He said to him

Rav Asi:

Are you challenging one man’s statement with another man’s statement?

You are challenging one person with another! Indeed, Rabbi Elazar holds that the halakha is in accordance with Rabban Gamliel, but Rabbi Yoḥanan holds that the halakha is in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda.

If you wish, say instead:

This is not difficult.

There is no contradiction between Rabbi Yoḥanan’s ruling and Rabbi Elazar’s ruling.

For

here,

what Rabbi Elazar said—that the halakha is in accordance with Rabban Gamliel—refers to

requesting

rain. The halakha is that rain is requested beginning on the seventh of Marḥeshvan.

Whereas

here,

what Rabbi Yoḥanan said—that the halakha is in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda—refers to

mentioning

rain. Rain is mentioned beginning on the first day of the festival.

The Gemara challenges this: How can one say that Rabbi Yoḥanan too holds that rain is requested only beginning on the seventh of Marḥeshvan,

when Rabbi Yoḥanan said: In the place

—that is, at the same time—

that one requests

rain, he also

mentions

it? According to your statement, he mentions rain even at a time when he does not yet request it, since he begins mentioning it on the last day of the festival, but does not request it until the seventh of Marḥeshvan!

The Gemara answers:

That statement,

what Rabbi Yoḥanan said—that wherever one requests, one mentions—was stated only

with regard to stopping.

From the time one stops requesting rain, namely, on the eve of Passover, one also stops mentioning it. But with regard to beginning, the times for mentioning and requesting are not the same.

The Gemara challenges this:

But Rabbi Yoḥanan said

explicitly:

“When he begins mentioning, he begins requesting.

When he stops requesting, he stops mentioning.”

This indicates that even concerning the beginning of mentioning rain, Rabbi Yoḥanan stated this rule: The times for requesting and mentioning are the same. This is not in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda’s position, according to which one mentions rain from the last day of the festival but requests it only from the following day!

Because of this difficulty, the possibility of resolving Rabbi Yoḥanan’s ruling in this manner is rejected.

The Gemara attempts to resolve the difficulty in another way:

Rather, this is not difficult: This

—what Rabbi Yoḥanan said, that from the time one begins mentioning rain one begins requesting it—refers to us —to the people of Babylonia. Since we have grain and produce in the fields throughout the month of Tishrei, and if rain falls upon them it will damage them, we do not mention rain until the seventh of Marḥeshvan, and at that time we also begin requesting it.

Whereas

this

—what Rav Asi said in the name of Rabbi Yoḥanan, that the halakha is in accordance with Rabbi Yehuda—refers

to them

—to the people of Eretz Yisrael, who harvest the grain in Nisan

and gather it in Tishrei. Since this is the case, they mention rain already on the last day of the festival.

The Gemara challenges this: What is different for us —for us, the people of Babylonia—who begin mentioning and requesting rain only on the seventh of Marḥeshvan because we have produce in the fields —because there is produce in our fields? After all, they too

—the people of Eretz Yisrael—

have

pilgrims , who must return to their homes outside Jerusalem after the festival of Sukkot. It is not convenient for them for rain to fall immediately at the end of the festival, because rain damages the roads and makes it difficult for the pilgrims to return to their homes!

?

The Gemara explains:

When Rabbi Yoḥanan said

that in Eretz Yisrael rain is mentioned from the last day of the festival, this refers

to a time when the Temple is not standing ,

when the practice of ascending on pilgrimage has already ceased.

,

The Gemara says:

Now that you have arrived at this

—now that you have reached the conclusion that the discussion refers to a time when the Temple is not standing—it is possible to reconcile the contradictory halakhic rulings as follows: