Sukkah 18b (יח:) — the Talmud in English

And the Gemara explains:

Abaye said: It is valid,

because

we say: “the edge of the roof

the thickness of the boards at the edge of the roof of the portico, which are visible in the sukka], is considered as though it

descends and closes off,”

and it thereby becomes a complete wall for the sukka in the courtyard. This is called gud achit mechitzata—“draw down and lower the partition.”

Rava said: It is invalid,

as he holds that

we do not say: “the edge of the roof descends and closes off.”

That is, in this situation we do not say that the edge of the roof descends and closes off, and the reason for this will be explained below.

Rava said to Abaye: According to you, who say that the edge of the roof descends and closes off,

would you say this

even

in the case of a sukka made in the middle of a courtyard, where the courtyard walls do not serve as walls for the sukka, and where the sukka was roofed with thick boards that are not four handbreadths wide and are valid for roofing, and

he removed

the middle

the middle wall

of the sukka, so that only two walls remained on its two sides—would we validate this sukka because “the edge of the roof descends and closes off,” as though the thickness of the boards at the end of the sukka descends and completes the missing wall?!

He said to him

Abaye said to Rava:

I concede to you,

I agree with your position

in that

sukka in which its middle wall was removed, where we do not say, “the edge of the roof descends and closes off,”

for

since only two partitions remained, opposite one another,

it is

this sukka

like an open-ended alleyway

intended for public passage, where the passage of the public through it nullifies the partition. Therefore, here too, the Sages decreed that one may not rely on “the edge of the roof descends and closes off,” since this sukka resembles an open-ended alleyway. But we say “the edge of the roof descends and closes off” only in the case of a sukka made in a courtyard, since it is surrounded by the walls of the house.

And the Gemara considers:

Let us say,

should we say that

Abaye and Rava are disputing the same issue as Rav and Shmuel?

For it was stated: A portico

that has no walls at all, neither in front of it nor behind it, but has only a roof, such as one constructed

in an open field,

which has the status of a karmelit, and it is prohibited to carry within it on Shabbat for a distance of four cubits, as is the case with a public domain by Torah law. [But a portico constructed in front of houses, although walls are not made for it, is nevertheless enclosed by the walls of the houses on three of its sides, and it is a full-fledged private domain],

Rav said: It is permitted to carry

objects on Shabbat from one place to another

throughout it,

that is, throughout the entire portico, and it has the status of a full-fledged private domain, because

we say: “the edge of the roof descends and closes off,”

and it is considered surrounded by partitions on all its sides.

And Shmuel said: One may not carry in it

within the portico

except for four cubits,

as is the law of a karmelit [and of a public domain], because

we do not say that the edge of the roof descends and closes off

on all four sides.

But if there was at least one partition there, Shmuel agrees that we say “the edge of the roof descends and closes off” to complete its other partitions.

It would therefore seem that Abaye, who says “the edge of the roof descends and closes off” with regard to a sukka in a courtyard that does not have even one partition, follows Rav. Whereas Rava, who holds that we do not say “the edge of the roof descends and closes off” with regard to a sukka in a courtyard, follows Shmuel, who holds that we do not say that the edge of the roof descends and closes off for all the partitions.

And the Gemara rejects this:

According to Shmuel,

who holds that we do not say “the edge of the roof descends and closes off” for all the partitions,

everyone

both Rava and Abaye

agree.

According to everyone, Shmuel holds that we do not say that the edge of the roof descends and closes off in order to surround a sukka in a courtyard on all its sides.