Sukkah 18b — the Talmud in English

And the Gemara explains:

Abaye said: It is valid, ![](pamud.bmp "

exact location on the page") since

we say, “the edge of the ceiling [

the thickness of the boards at the edge of the roof of the portico, which are visible in the sukka], is considered as though it

descends and seals,”

and it becomes a complete wall for the sukka in the courtyard. And this is what is called, “gud achit mechitzata”—draw down and lower the partition.

Rava said: It is invalid,

for he holds that

we do not say, “the edge of the ceiling descends and seals.”

That is, in this manner we do not say that the edge of the ceiling descends and seals, and his reason will be explained below.

Rava said to Abaye: According to you, who say that the edge of the ceiling descends and seals,

would you say this

even

in the case of a sukka made in the middle of the courtyard, where the walls of the courtyard do not become walls for the sukka, and when the sukka was roofed with thick boards that are not four handbreadths wide and are valid for roofing, and

he reduced

the middle

the middle wall

of the sukka, so that only two walls remained for it, on its two sides—would we validate this sukka because “the edge of the ceiling descends and seals,” as though the thickness of the boards at the end of the sukka descends and completes the missing wall?!

He said to him

Abaye to Rava:

I agree with you,

I acknowledge your words

in that

sukka whose middle wall he reduced, that we do not say in it “the edge of the ceiling descends and seals,”

for

since only two partitions remained, opposite one another,

it became

this sukka

like an open-ended alleyway

made for the passage of the public, where the public’s passage through it nullifies the partition. And therefore here too the Sages decreed that one may not rely on “the edge of the ceiling descends and seals,” since this sukka resembles an open-ended alleyway. And we say “the edge of the ceiling descends and seals” only in the case of a sukka made in a courtyard, since it is surrounded by the walls of the house.

The Gemara discusses this:

Let us say,

does this mean that

Abaye and Rava are disputing in the same dispute as Rav and Shmuel?

For it was stated: A portico

that has no walls at all, neither in front of it nor behind it, but has only a ceiling, and, for example, is made

in an open field,

whose status is that of a karmelit, and it is forbidden to carry within it four cubits on Shabbat, as is the law with regard to a public domain by Torah law. [But a portico made in front of houses, even though walls are not made for it, is nevertheless enclosed by the walls of the houses on three of its sides, and is a complete private domain],

Rav said: It is permitted to carry

objects on Shabbat from one place to another

throughout it,

that is, throughout the entire portico, and its status is that of a complete private domain, because

we say, “the edge of the ceiling descends and seals,”

and it is as though it is surrounded by partitions on all its sides.

And Shmuel said: One may not carry in it

within the portico

except four cubits

as is the law of a karmelit [and as is the law of a public domain], because

we do not say that the edge of the ceiling descends and seals

on all four sides.

But if there was there at least one partition, Shmuel agrees that we say “the edge of the ceiling descends and seals” to complete its other partitions.

It would apparently follow that Abaye, who says “the edge of the ceiling descends and seals” in the case of a sukka in a courtyard that does not have even one partition, holds like Rav. Whereas Rava, who holds that we do not say “the edge of the ceiling descends and seals” in the case of a sukka in a courtyard, holds like Shmuel, who says that we do not say “the edge of the ceiling descends and seals” for all the partitions.

And the Gemara rejects this:

According to Shmuel,

who holds that we do not say “the edge of the ceiling descends and seals” for all the partitions,

everyone,

both Rava and Abaye,

do not disagree.

And according to everyone, Shmuel holds that we do not say that the edge of the ceiling descends and seals in order to surround a sukka in a courtyard on all its sides.