Pesachim 51a — the Talmud in English

You are not permitted to permit it in their presence.

He said to him

Rav Yosef:

And

for

was it not stated concerning it

that beraita:

Rav Hisda said:

It was taught that way only

with the Cutheans

[Cutheans] who adopted a prohibition regarding permitted matters. But with the other people of Israel, it is permitted to permit it in their presence.

Abaye said to him:

With the Cutheans, for what reason is it not

permitted in their presence? —

Because

if he permits in their presence matters regarding which they adopted a prohibition,

the matter will become degraded

[the observance of the mitzvot will become belittled in their eyes], and they will come to permit even matters that are forbidden by law.

If so,

these people

[the people of Khuzai]

also,

since they are not learned in Torah,

the matter will become degraded

for them

the matter.

And if you permit them in their presence to eat rice-halla, they will refrain from separating halla even from grain dough.

Rather, Rav Ashi said: We examine —

if most of them eat rice, a stranger should not eat in their presence

the rice-halla.

Perhaps the teaching of halla will be forgotten from them

entirely, and they will not separate it even from grain.

But

if most of them eat grain, a stranger should eat in their presence

rice-halla. For there is no concern lest the teaching of halla be forgotten from them, since we still obligate them to separate from grain.

On the contrary, this stringency should be uprooted from among them. For since they err and think that rice is obligated in halla, they may stumble by eating untithed produce.

For

perhaps he will come to separate

halla

from

the dough of

the

grain, which is a dough of

obligation, upon

the dough of

the

rice, which is a dough of

exemption.

And since it was separated upon that which is exempt, it is not halla, but it is still untithed produce. And if they give it to a priest, it turns out that the priest is eating untithed produce.

Or they will separate

from

the dough of

the

rice, which is a dough of

exemption, upon

the dough of

the

grain, which is a dough of

obligation.

And since the designation of halla did not take effect upon the rice, the grain dough has still not been rectified, but it is still untithed produce. And they will be found eating untithed produce.

The body of the matter: Permitted matters, regarding which others adopted a prohibition—You are not permitted to permit them in their presence!

Rav Hisda said: We are dealing with Cutheans,

who are not expert in the laws. And if you permit for them what they think is forbidden, they will come to permit even matters that are forbidden by law.

And we wonder: Is this taught specifically with regard to Cutheans,

but not with regard to everyone else?!

For it was taught:

a.

Two brothers may bathe together.

And there is no matter of licentiousness here. And we are not concerned that, because they see one another naked, they will set their eyes upon one another for male intercourse.

But two brothers may not bathe together in Kabul

[a place], for in this place they adopted a prohibition against two brothers bathing together.

And there was an incident involving Judah and Hillel,

who were

the sons of Rabban Gamaliel, who bathed together in Kabul. And the entire country mocked

[ridiculed]

them. And they said

the people of the country:

Never in our lives have we seen this

that two brothers should bathe together!

And Hillel slipped away and went out to the outer room

of the bathhouse, and remained silent.

And he did not wish

to justify himself and

say to them: It is permitted

even for

you

to bathe together as two brothers, because a permitted matter regarding which others adopted a prohibition—you are not permitted to permit it in their presence.

b.

One may go out wearing kordakison

[thin shoes worn beneath the shoes]

on Shabbat,

and we are not concerned lest, because they are wide, they fall from his feet and he come to carry them four cubits in the public domain.

And

even though it is permitted by law,

one may not go out wearing kordakison on Shabbat in Biri

[a place].

And there was an incident involving Judah and Hillel, the sons of Rabban Gamaliel, who went out wearing kordakison on Shabbat in Biri. And the country mocked them. And they said: Never in our lives have we seen

a person go out

thus

on Shabbat!

And they removed

the kordakison from Hillel and Judah,

and gave them

to their slaves. And they did not wish to say to them: It is permitted

even for

you

to do this.

c.

And one may sit on the benches of gentiles

[on which they sell merchandise]

on Shabbat,

and we are not concerned that they will suspect him of doing business on Shabbat.

And

even though it is permitted by law,

they do not sit on the benches of gentiles in Akko.

And there was an incident involving Rabban Shimon ben Gamaliel, who sat on the benches of gentiles on Shabbat in Akko. And the entire country mocked him. They said: Never in our lives have we seen

a person sit

thus

on Shabbat.

And when Rabban Shimon ben Gamaliel heard,

he slipped away

from the bench and sat

on the ground. And he did not wish to say to them: It is permitted

even for

you

to do this.

Evidently, that which it teaches, “Permitted matters, regarding which others adopted a prohibition—you are not permitted to permit them in their presence,” is not taught specifically with regard to Cutheans, but even with regard to the other people of Israel. And it is difficult for Rav Hisda.

And we answer: All these places resemble the overseas countries.

And Rav Hisda concedes that

the people of the overseas countries also

are forbidden to permit it in their presence. For

since scholars are not commonly found among them,

they are not learned and their place is not a place of Torah—rather,

they resemble Cutheans!

And with regard to them also there is concern that the matter will become degraded.

And we inquire about it:

Granted,

sitting on Shabbat upon

the benches of gentiles,

the people of Akko adopted a prohibition regarding it

because

one who sits upon them

appears as

engaged

in buying and selling

on Shabbat. For they are made for commerce.

And likewise going out

wearing kordakison also,

the people of Biri adopted a prohibition regarding it, because

perhaps they will slip off

his feet,

and he will come to carry them four cubits in the public domain!

And he will transgress the prohibition of the labor of carrying four cubits in the public domain on Shabbat.

But

with regard to two brothers

bathing

together—

for what reason did they not

do so in Kabul?

And we answer: I might have said that they should be forbidden,

as it was taught:

With everyone a person may bathe

in a bathhouse

except with his father,

because when he sees him he remembers that he emerged from there, and he gives his mind to thoughts.

And

not with

his father-in-law, because he gives his mind to the fact that his wife emerged from there.

because he focuses his thoughts on the fact that his wife came from him.

And

not with

his mother’s husband, and

not with

his sister’s husband, because even on account of them he comes to thoughts.

because they too can lead him to improper thoughts.

And Rabbi Judah permits with

regard to bathing with

his father, because of the honor of his father,

for by attending to him in the bathhouse, he is occupied with honoring his father.

And the same law applies to his mother’s husband,

who is permitted to bathe with him, because he is also obligated in honoring his mother’s husband.

And they—

the people of Kabul—

came and decreed with regard to two brothers, because of his sister’s husband.

A tanna taught: A student may not bathe with his master.

For the student must be ashamed of doing so, because of the honor and awe of his master.

And if his master needs him,

to attend to him,

it is permitted

for him to bathe with him.

When Rabba bar bar Hana arrived, he ate the milk of the aytera

[the milk found in the fold of the stomach], which the people of the Land of Israel eat, because it is not among the forbidden fats. But the people of Babylonia adopted a prohibition regarding it.

They entered to him

[they came to him]

Rav Avira the Elder and Rabba, son of Rav Huna,

while he was eating this milk.

When

he saw them,

which means that Rabba bar bar Hana saw them, he

covered

that milk

from them,

so that they should not see him.

They came

Rav Avira and Rabba

and told Abaye

what they had seen.

He said to them

Abaye:

Rabba bar bar Hana made you

[made you]

like Cutheans,

for he concealed the milk from you so that he would not be forced to say to you that this milk is permitted for eating.

And he was concerned about that which was taught: A matter regarding which they adopted a prohibition—you are not permitted to permit it in their presence. And Rav Hisda already established it as referring to Cutheans.

Thus, by not wishing to permit this matter for you, he treated you as Cutheans.

And we wonder:

And

for

does Rabba bar bar Hana not hold this which we learned:

One who travels from one place to another,

they impose upon him

also

the stringencies of the place from which he departed, and

also

the stringencies of the place to which he went!

And he should not have deviated from the practice of the people of Babylonia not to eat this milk, because of dispute.

Abaye said: These words

that he should not deviate because of dispute apply specifically to one who travels

from

one place in

Babylonia to

another place in

Babylonia.

And from the Land of Israel to

another place in

the Land of Israel. Alternatively, from Babylonia to the Land of Israel.

(Gemara)

But

one who travels

from the Land of Israel to Babylonia,

is permitted to be lenient according to the practice of the Land of Israel, even when he is in Babylonia.

And

we are not concerned about dispute in this.

For since we

[the people of Babylonia]

are subordinate to them

[subordinate to the people of the Land of Israel]—

we act like them!

For because they are ordained and we are not ordained [for there is no ordination in Babylonia], even when they come to our place they do not need to nullify their practice because of us.

Rav Ashi said: Even if you say

that one who travels

from the Land of Israel to Babylonia

is obligated to follow the stringencies of Babylonia, there is also no difficulty concerning Rabba bar bar Hana.

For these words

that they impose upon him the stringencies of the place to which he went apply specifically

where he has no intention of returning

to his place, but rather of settling permanently in the place to which he went.

And Rabba bar bar Hana, his intention was to return

to the Land of Israel

!

Therefore he was not obligated to follow the stringencies of Babylonia.

Rabba bar bar Hana said to his son: My son,

although I eat the milk of the aytera, you

shall not eat

it

neither in my presence nor not in my presence.

I, who saw Rabbi Yohanan eat it—

he is worthy

[fit]

to rely upon Rabbi Yohanan,

and to eat

both in his presence and not in his presence.

But

you, who did not see him

eating the milk of the aytera—

shall not eat, neither in my presence nor not in my presence.

And his statements contradict one another!

For Rabba bar bar Hana contradicts his own words elsewhere.

For Rabba bar bar Hana said: Rabbi Yohanan ben Elazar related to me: Once I entered after Rabbi Shimon ben Rabbi Yosei ben Lakonia into a garden

in the Sabbatical year,