Chullin 97a (צז.) — the Talmud in English

And we resolve:

the case of fat differs

from that of the sciatic nerve,

for

fat

permeates

and spreads throughout all the meat, even during roasting, whereas the sciatic nerve contracts during roasting, and does not emerge into the meat.

And we challenge this:

But with regard to fat

that was roasted together with meat, is

the meat forbidden

?

But didn’t Rabba bar bar Ḥana say: An incident occurred before Rabbi Yoḥanan in the synagogue of Maon, involving a kid that was roasted in its fat, and they came and asked Rabbi Yoḥanan about it, and he said: Peel

from the meat of the kid

and eat

it

until you reach its fat!

And it is evident that fat, too, does not permeate during roasting?!

And we resolve:

That

kid

was lean!

Rav Huna bar Yehuda said:

That case involved

a kidney,

which had been roasted

in its fat, and Rabbi Yoḥanan permitted it,

because the membrane separates the fat from the kidney, and the fat cannot bubble through the membrane into the kidney.

Ravin bar Rav Adda said:

That case involved

small fish,

a type of small fish, which had been fried

in a pan,

together with meat,

and they came and asked Rabbi Yoḥanan about it. And he said to them:

Rabbi Yoḥanan said:

Let a gentile baker taste it,

and let him tell us whether the taste of the forbidden substance is discernible in the meat. We rely on him when he speaks innocently, as he does not know that we are asking him about a matter of prohibition and permission.

Rava said: At first,

initially,

the following baraita was difficult for me: A pot in which one cooked meat—

one may not cook milk in it! And if one cooked—

we examine it

by whether it imparts flavor!

For if the taste of the meat is discernible in the milk, the dish is forbidden under the law of meat and milk that were cooked together.

And likewise, a pot in which one cooked

teruma—

one may not cook non-sacred food in it! And if one cooked—

we examine it

by whether it imparts flavor!

And this is what was difficult for Rava:

Granted, teruma,

which had been cooked in the pot, after which non-sacred food was cooked in that same pot,

a kohen can taste it,

as he is permitted to eat teruma, and he can tell us whether it has the status of imparting flavor.

But meat

that was cooked

in milk—

who can taste it!?

For everyone is prohibited from eating it!?

But now that Rabbi Yoḥanan says that we rely on a gentile baker,

then

here too,

in the case of meat and milk,

we rely

on the tasting of a

gentile baker!

Rava said: The Sages stated

in several places that the measure of nullification is

by taste,

establishing the measure of nullification as “imparts flavor.”

And the Sages stated

in other places, such as here, that Rabbi Yoḥanan said that we examine it

through a gentile baker.