Chullin 17b — the Talmud in English

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A knife that has many notches

even if the notches are of the type called “mesukhashekhet,” such that if there were only one such notch the knife would be fit, nevertheless, if there are two of them,

it shall be deemed

the knife

like a saw,

as though the notches were of the type that disqualifies the knife even with a single notch, as will be explained below.

And

a knife

that has only one notch,

if this notch

“gorer”

then the knife is

unfit,

but if it is

“mesukhashekhet”

the knife is

fit.

And the Gemara discusses:

What is the nature of “gorer”

and what is the nature of “mesukhashekhet”?

What is the form of these notches?

And we answer:

Rabbi Eliezer said:

“‘Gorer’ is a notch that has two points

from two directions

at the two ends of the notch [and the expression “gorer” is because the notch gathers into itself the fingernail that passes over the knife in order to examine it, between its two points].

“Mesukhashekhet

is a notch that has only one point

from one direction

of the notch, while at the other end the notch was smoothed with a whetstone and there is no point there [and “mesukhashekhet” is from the expression “conflict,” because through the notch the knife encounters the flesh].

And we challenge this:

What difference is there

between a notched knife

from two directions,

so that we say that the knife is unfit because

the first point

at the end of the notch

weakens,

cutting the skin and flesh at the outset,

and the second point,

the second point,

tears,

afterward the signs in the animal’s neck? If so, even if it were notched

from one direction as well,

the knife should be disqualified, because

the sharpness of the knife,

the sharp, unnotched part of the knife,

weakens

the skin and flesh first,

and the point tears,

the single point of the notch reaches the signs afterward and tears them?

And we answer: The case in which we deem fit a notch “from one direction” is specifically when it is

positioned at the beginning of the knife.

The notch is immediately at the beginning of the knife, and it cuts only the skin and flesh, whereas the signs are cut by the remainder of the knife, which is smooth.

And we challenge this:

Ultimately,

the slaughter should also be disqualified with “from one direction,” because

when it goes, it weakens,

when the knife is moved along the neck it cuts the skin and flesh, and

when it returns, it tears,

and afterward, when the knife is brought back along the neck, the single point of the notch will again strike the signs and tear them?

And we answer:

For example, he moved it and did not bring it back,

that he slaughtered only by moving the knife forward! Thus the notch does not pass over the neck more than once.

Rava said: There are three measures with regard to a knife.

Three types of notches are possible in a knife:

a.

With a “gorer” notch, one may not slaughter

with a knife possessing this notch.

And if he slaughtered, his slaughter is unfit.

b.

With a “mesukhashekhet” notch, one may not slaughter with it ab initio,

lest he move the knife forward and backward, in which case the slaughter would be disqualified as stated above.

And if he slaughtered, his slaughter is fit.

c.

One that rises and descends in the knife,

that is, there was a large notch in the knife, and he smoothed the two points of the notch with a whetstone, so that that place became lower, and as a result the blade of the knife appears to descend and rise,

one may slaughter with it ab initio.

Rav Huna, son of Rav Nehemiah, said to Rav Ashi: You told us in the name of Rava: A “mesukhashekhet” notch is unfit.

But it was taught: A “mesukhashekhet” notch is fit?

And we answer:

It is not difficult.

Here,

what Rava said, that it is unfit,

is when he moved it forward and brought it back

the knife, whereby the slaughter is disqualified as stated above;

here,

the beraita that teaches that it is fit, is when he

moved it forward and did not bring it back.

Rav Aha, son of Rav Avya, said to Rav Ashi: [What is the law regarding a knife] similar to a sasaa,

a knife that is not entirely smooth but does not have an actual notch, like the hair at the top of ears of grain, which has slight notches,

what

is its status? Is the knife fit?

He said to him,

Rav Ashi:

Who will give us some of its meat, and we will eat it!

May someone give us some of the meat slaughtered with this knife and we will eat it; that is, the knife is fit even ab initio.

Rav Hisda said: From where is [it derived] that the examination of a knife

in order to see whether it has no notch, which one is obligated to perform,

is from the Torah? As it is stated

concerning Saul, who said:

“And you shall slaughter with this and eat.”

The expression “with this” indicates that they should slaughter with a knife that he examined for them.

And we challenge this: Why do we need a verse for the examination of a knife?

It is obvious! Since, when it punctures,

if there is a defect in the knife and as a result it punctures the gullet,

it is an animal with a fatal defect,

then

does it require examination?

And we answer:

We are speaking of [showing it] to a Sage,

that one is obligated to give the knife to a Sage to examine; this is what we need to learn from the verse, since we find that Saul examined the knife.

And we challenge this:

But Rabbi Yohanan said: They said

the Sages that one must

show a knife to a Sage only on account of the honor of the Sage,

and it is not a Torah obligation, so that we should learn it from the verse?

And we answer: Indeed,

it is rabbinic,

it is,

and the verse

from which we derive that the knife should be shown to a Sage

is merely a support.

In the West they examined it

the knife

by sunlight.

They looked at the edge of the knife opposite the sun, to see well whether it had a notch.

In Nehardea they examined it with water,

they moved the knife over the water, with the blade facing downward and touching the water lightly, and if there was a notch it appeared as though it made a furrow in the water as it moved.

Rav Sheshet examined it at the tip of his tongue.

He passed the knife over the edge of his tongue to feel whether it had a notch.

Rav Aha bar Yaakov examined it with a strand of hair

which he passed over the knife and felt whether it was held up by a notch.

In Sura they say: It eats flesh,

the slaughtering knife is intended for cutting the flesh of the signs,

with flesh one should examine it,

and therefore it should be examined on the flesh of the tongue or of the finger, since this is the proper examination. For if he feels that the flesh encounters the notch, the flesh of the signs will likewise encounter it, and the slaughter is thereby disqualified. But if he examines it on another object, the examination will not be accurate: if it is harder than flesh, it will pass over the notch without its being felt. And if it is softer than flesh, even a slight notch will be felt on it, although such a notch does not yet disqualify the slaughter.

Rav Pappa said:

A knife

requires examination on flesh and on the fingernail,

on the flesh of the finger and on

the fingernail,

and on three sides.

One examines the knife on its three sides, that is, at the middle of the edge and on both sides of the edge, because even if the notch is on the side of the knife, it tears the sign.

Ravina said to Rav Ashi: Rav Sama, son of Rav Mesharsheya, told us in your name that you said to him in the name of Rava: It requires examination on flesh, on the fingernail, and on three sides.

He said to him

Rav Ashi to Ravina:

Regarding flesh and the fingernail, I said it; regarding three sides, I did not say it.

Some say

as follows

Rav Ashi said: Regarding flesh, the fingernail, and three sides, I said it.

But

in the name of Rava I did not say it,

rather, I said this on my own.

Ravina and Rav Aha, son of Rava, were sitting before Rav Ashi.

They brought a knife before Rav Ashi to examine it. He said to him

Rav Ashi

to Rav Aha, son of Rava: Examine it!

Examine this knife;

he examined it

Rav Aha

on the fingernail, on flesh, and on three sides.

Rav Ashi said to him: Well done!

You acted properly.

And so Rav Kahana said

that this is how it must be examined.

Rav Yeimar said: Examination on the fingernail and flesh is required.

But

examination on three sides is not required!

For even if there is a notch on the sides of the knife, it does not disqualify it, because the edge of the knife cuts the sign first, and immediately it expands, so that the sides of the knife do not touch it.

And there is proof of this:

Did Rabbi Zeira not say in the name of Shmuel: If one white-heated a knife

in fire

and slaughtered with it, his slaughter is fit,

and we do not say that the heat of the knife burns the signs and renders the animal one with a fatal defect before the knife cuts, because

its sharpness precedes its heating!

The knife cuts first, before the heat causes the signs to be burned.

And Rav Yeimar concludes:

And we have a difficulty: There are sides

of the knife that touch the two parts of the severed sign before the slaughter is completed, and the animal thereby becomes one with a fatal defect, since they burn and puncture the signs?

And we say: The slaughtering-house expands,

it immediately expands when cut by the edge of the knife, and the sides of the knife do not touch the signs at all.

Here too,

there is no need to examine the sides of the knife, since

the slaughtering-house expands.

As stated above.

Rav Huna bar Katina said in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish: There are three notches!

There are three matters in which a notch disqualifies, and the measure of the notch is equal in all three.

a.

A notch in a bone of a

sacrifice

of the Passover offering,

for if he makes a notch in a bone, he transgresses the prohibition: “You shall not break a bone in it.”

b.

A notch in the ear of a firstborn,

for through the notch the firstborn becomes blemished, and it is possible to slaughter it outside the Temple.

c.

A notch constituting a blemish in consecrated animals,

in female sacrifices that become blemished through a notch in limbs in which the notch is not apparent, and through this they are disqualified from being offered.

And Rav Hisda said: Also a notch in a knife,

the measure of whose notch is equal to all these.

And the other one,

the first amora, who did not count a notch in a knife, because

he is not speaking about non-sacred animals.

And all of them,

the measure of

their notches

is

the measure of a notch in the altar,

for an altar in which one of its stones has been notched is unfit for offering upon it.