Bava Kamma 38b — the Talmud in English

Moabites themselves—kal va-chomer.

The Holy One, blessed be He, said to

Moses:

It was not as you thought

to wage war against them;

it was as I thought,

but I do not wish you to wage war against them. For

two good offspring

[daughters]

I have to bring forth from them: Ruth the Moabite and Naamah the Ammonite.

And with these words Ulla consoled Rav Shmuel bar Yehuda, and thus he said to him:

And is this not a kal va-chomer: If because of two good offspring

alone, who emerged from two nations,

the Holy One, blessed be He, spared

the two

nations

nations

the

great

all of them,

and did not destroy them.

The daughter of Rabbi

[your daughter],

if she herself is fit

she

herself

to bring forth something good from her, how much more so that she would

herself

live,

and the Holy One, blessed be He, would not kill her. If so, you have no reason to grieve.

It is written [Genesis 19:30]: “And Lot went up from Zoar [after the overturning of Sodom and Gomorrah], and settled in the mountain, and his two daughters with him, for he was afraid to settle in Zoar, and he settled in a cave, he and his two daughters. And the elder said to the younger, ‘Our father is old, and there is no man in the land to come upon us in the manner of all the earth’ [they thought that the entire world had been destroyed, as in the generation of the Flood]. ‘Come, let us give our father wine to drink and lie with him, and let us preserve seed from our father.’ And they gave their father wine to drink that night, and the elder came and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. And it was on the next day, and the elder said to the younger, ‘Behold, I lay with my father last night; let us also give him wine to drink tonight, and you come and lie with him, and let us preserve seed from our father.’ And they gave their father wine to drink that night also, and the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. And the two daughters of Lot conceived from their father. And the elder gave birth to a son, and she called his name Moab; he is the father of Moab to this day. And the younger also gave birth to a son, and she called his name Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the children of Ammon to this day.”

Rabbi Hiyya bar Abba said that Rabbi Yohanan said:

The Holy One, blessed be He, does not withhold the reward of any creature,

the Holy One, blessed be He, does not withhold the reward of any creature,

and

even the reward for a fine conversation!

And this is proof that the Holy One, blessed be He, does not withhold the reward for a fine conversation:

for the elder,

who was not modest in her speech,

as she said

[she called the name of the son born to her from her father]

Moab,

meaning: “from my father I have this one,”

the Holy One, blessed be He, said

to Moses:

“Do not harass Moab, and do not provoke them to war,”

and it implies:

war it is that you shall not

wage against Moab,

but forced labor you may impose upon them

[you may enslave them to bring water and food to the children of Israel].

But

the younger,

who was modest,

as she said

[she called the name of the son born to her from her father]

Ben-Ammi,

the Holy One, blessed be He, said

to Moses:

“And when you approach

[when you approach]

the children of Ammon, do not harass them and do not provoke them,”

for it implies:

entirely

and absolutely not, for He did not say, “Do not provoke them to war,” but “Do not provoke them” without qualification, to say:

you may not even impose forced labor upon them

[you shall not do even this to the children of Ammon].

And Rabbi Hiyya bar Abba said that Rabbi Yehoshua ben Korha said:

A person should always hasten to perform a mitzva, for because

the elder preceded the younger by one night

in performing a mitzva, for both of them had this intention,

she preceded her by four generations in relation to Israel,

meaning: she had a son connected with Israel four generations before her sister. And who are the four generations?

Obed,

who was the son of Ruth the Moabite from Boaz,

Jesse,

his son,

and David,

his son,

and Solomon,

his son.

But

the younger

did not have a son connected with Israel

until Rehoboam,

the son of Solomon [four generations after Obed],

as it is written

concerning Rehoboam:

“And the name of his mother was Naamah the Ammonite.”

The Sages taught:

An ox belonging to an Israelite that gored an ox belonging to a Cuthean,

behold, it is

exempt,

because of the penalty that the Sages imposed upon the Cutheans, even though they are true converts and their law is like that of Israelites: [this was done] so that Israelites would not assimilate among them through marriage, for they are of doubtful disqualification, as explained in Kiddushin 74a.

And concerning an ox belonging to a Cuthean that gored an ox belonging to an Israelite: an innocuous ox pays half the damage, and a forewarned ox pays the full damage,

for the Cutheans are true converts and their law is like that of Israelites, and the penalty imposed by the Sages—to exempt the Israelite from paying them damages—is sufficient, so that [the Israelites] would not assimilate among them.

Rabbi Meir says:

An ox belonging to an Israelite that gored an ox belonging to a Cuthean is exempt; and an ox belonging to a Cuthean that gored an ox belonging to an Israelite, whether innocuous or forewarned, pays the full damage,

meaning: their law concerning damages is like that of gentiles.

Does this mean,

that it was stated

that Rabbi Meir holds: the Cutheans are converts because of lions

[because of fear of the lions they converted, and they are not converts], and therefore their law is like that of gentiles—

And he raises a contradiction

to this, from what we learned in the Mishna in tractate Niddah 56b:

All bloodstains

[garments stained with menstrual blood]

that come from Rekem

[a city whose majority are presumed to be gentiles]

are pure,

for the blood of a gentile woman who menstruates does not impart ritual impurity; and

Rabbi Yehuda declares them impure, because they are—

even the gentiles who are in Rekem—

converts

they are

and err,

for they conduct themselves like gentiles, and their law is like that of an Israelite apostate.

And the bloodstains that come

from among the gentiles

are

pure.

But the bloodstains that come

from among Israelites and from among the Cutheans: Rabbi Meir declares them impure, and the Sages declare them pure, for Israelites were not suspected concerning their bloodstains.

That is to say: bloodstains that come from among Israelites and from among the Cutheans, and are not situated in a public place, are impure, for the blood of the Cutheans also imparts impurity like the blood of Israelites, since they are true converts.

But bloodstains that are not concealed, but are situated in a public place: there is a distinction concerning this between bloodstains in the cities of Israelites, which are pure according to everyone, for Israelites were not suspected concerning their bloodstains of leaving them in a public place, but conceal them so that ritually pure objects would not become impure through them; whereas those found among the Cutheans in a public place are subject to a dispute between Rabbi Meir and the Sages. According to Rabbi Meir, they are impure, for the Cutheans were suspected concerning their bloodstains of leaving them in a public place; whereas according to the Sages, they are pure, for they too were not suspected concerning their bloodstains of leaving them in a public place.

Evidently,

it is proven from the fact that Rabbi Meir declares the bloodstains of the Cutheans impure that

Rabbi Meir holds: the Cutheans are true converts.

And this is difficult from the beraita above, from which it is evident that Rabbi Meir holds, “the Cutheans are converts because of lions”!?

He said

he answered,

Rabbi Abbahu:

In truth, Rabbi Meir holds that the Cutheans are true converts; and what Rabbi Meir said—that concerning damages their law is that of gentiles—

is a penalty

that Rabbi Meir imposed upon the property of the Cutheans,

so that

Israelites would not assimilate

among

them.

That is to say: they should not marry among them, for they are of doubtful disqualification, as explained in Kiddushin 74a.

That is to say, Rabbi Meir imposes a greater penalty than the Sages. For the Sages imposed a penalty only that an ox belonging to an Israelite should be exempt concerning [damage caused by] an ox belonging to a Cuthean. But they did not decree that a Cuthean’s innocuous ox should pay the full damage. Rabbi Meir, however, imposed a penalty even concerning their innocuous ox, that it should pay the full damage.

Rabbi Zeira raises an objection

to Rabbi Abbahu’s words, who holds that Rabbi Meir imposed a penalty upon their property, from what we learned at the beginning of the third chapter of Ketubot:

And these are the young women

who are virgins

for whom there is a penalty,

if a man raped them or seduced them:

One who has intercourse with a mamzeret, with a netina, or with a Cuthean woman.

And an anonymous Mishna is Rabbi Meir,

and if it enters your mind

that

Rabbi Meir imposed a penalty upon their property, here too,

concerning the penalty:

let Rabbi Meir impose a penalty

that one should not pay them the penalty

so that they would not assimilate among them!?