Avodah Zarah 43b — the Talmud in English

And we answer:

Abaye said: ![](pamud.bmp "

exact location on the page")

The Torah prohibited

making all the attendants of the Heights,

but only the image of four faces together,

that is, the face of an ox, a human being, a lion, and an eagle together, which is the image described in the Book of Ezekiel [1], which are the holy creatures carrying the Throne of Glory—so to speak—of the Holy One, blessed be He. And concerning this quadrangular image the Torah said: “You shall not make with Me.” For they dwell with the Holy One, blessed be He, so to speak .

But the sun and the moon are not prohibited. And the difficulty concerning how Rabban Gamaliel did so is thus resolved.

And we challenge:

If so, a human face by itself,

when it is not within a quadrangular image of four faces,

let it be permitted!

It should be permitted to make it for adornment.

Why, then, was it taught

and why did we learn in a beraita:

All faces are permitted

to make them—

except for a human face.

And why is a human face by itself prohibited?

And we answer: Indeed, only an image of four faces together is prohibited, and not the other attendants of the Heights, and this prohibition is expounded from what is stated: “You shall not make with Me.” And that which making a human face is prohibited is learned from another exposition—

He said [

the version of the Bach and the Maharsha: ]

Rav Huna, son of Rav Yehoshua: From Abaye’s lecture

from his exposition [which he would expound before the people]

I heard,

I heard this exposition: The Torah said,

“You shall not make with Me.”

And we expound:

“You shall not make ‘Me,’”

since the Holy One, blessed be He, is described, so to speak, by His prophets in the form of a human being, in order to make the matter comprehensible, therefore it is prohibited to make a “human” face.

But the other attendants are permitted,

it is permitted to make them. Therefore it was permitted for Rabban Gamaliel to make figures of the moon. [

Interim summary: It is prohibited to make actual forms of the attendants below, and likewise an image of four faces is prohibited, and likewise making a human face is prohibited. But the remaining attendants are permitted.]

And we challenge:

And the other attendants

apart from a human face and an image of four faces,

are they permitted?

Is it permitted?!

And

yet

it was taught

we learned in another beraita: The Torah said,

“You shall not make with Me,”

and we expound:

You shall not make in the likeness of the attendants who serve before Me in the Heights.

And the beraita explains:

Such as the ophanim, seraphim, the holy creatures, and the ministering angels,

images of human beings with wings .

It is thus explained in the beraita that it is prohibited to make images of the other attendants. This is difficult for Abaye’s words, who answers that only an image of four faces and a human face are prohibited.

And we answer:

Abaye said: The Torah prohibited only attendants that

dwell

in the upper chamber,

in the seventh firmament—and they are the ophanim, seraphim, the holy creatures, and the ministering angels—and concerning them it was said, “with Me”—

But the sun, moon, stars, and constellations, which are found in the lower chamber—in the second firmament—were not prohibited, because they are not included in the category of “with Me.”

And it was permitted for Rabban Gamaliel to make them.

And we challenge:

And

attendants

that

are found

in the lower chamber—

are they permitted?

Is it indeed permitted to make them?!

And

yet

it was taught

we learned in another beraita: The Torah said [Exodus 19]: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth below” [the challenger thought that this verse comes to prohibit making images merely for adornment ]—and we expound: “

That is in the heavens”

comes

to include the sun, moon, stars, and constellations.

And it was said:

“Above,”

to include

the ministering angels.

It is difficult: It is clear that it is prohibited even to make a form of the sun, moon, stars, and constellations. How, then, did Rabban Gamliel do this?

And this is difficult: It is explained that even the form of the sun, moon, stars, and constellations is prohibited to make, so how did Rabban Gamaliel do so?

And we answer: That beraita does not prohibit making them for adornment, but

when that beraita was taught,

what does it concern? One who makes these forms

in order to worship them,

for the purpose of idols , and one cannot learn from it a prohibition against making them for adornment.

And we challenge:

If

the beraita indeed speaks of the prohibition of making forms

in order to worship them,

what does it renew by saying: the sun and the moon and so on? Is it not that

even a small worm

a small worm among all created beings—

also

is prohibited to make in order to worship it?!

And we answer:

Yes, indeed,

it is prohibited to make even a small worm in order to worship it,

and it emerges from the end of the verse,

and the prohibition is learned from the continuation of the verse, while the Torah first specifies the great and mighty forms and afterward the small and simple ones—

As it was taught,

as we learned in the continuation of the beraita: It is stated there in the Torah,

“That is on the earth,”

and it comes

to include seas, rivers, mountains, and hills.

And it is further stated,

“Below,”

and it comes

to include: a small worm.

But making them for adornment the Torah did not prohibit in this verse.

And we challenge:

And mere making

for the sake of adornment,

is it permitted?

Is it indeed permitted to make the form of the sun and the moon?!

And

yet

it was taught

we learned in another beraita: The Torah said,

“You shall not make with Me,”

and we expound:

You shall not make in the likeness of the attendants who serve before Me in the Heights.

Such as the sun, moon, stars, and constellations.

And in this beraita it is stated explicitly that making an image of the sun and the moon is prohibited. And the difficulty returns: How did Rabban Gamaliel do so?

And we answer:

Different

is the case of

Rabban Gamaliel,

for it was not a Jew who made it for him, but

others,

gentiles,

made it for him , and therefore it was permitted for him to keep them in his upper chamber. For the prohibition is in the actual “making,” and not in the “keeping” .

he was therefore permitted to keep them in his attic. The prohibition concerns the actual “making,” not the “keeping.”

And we challenge: Is it indeed permitted to keep these forms, even though gentiles made them?!

But

yet

Rav Yehuda

who had a form on his ring

that others made for him

the form—

And Shmuel said to

his student

Rav Yehuda:

Sharp one! [

so Shmuel called Rav Yehuda, from the expression “a sharp arrow”]

Take out its eye,

destroy its form! That is, he warned him that it was prohibited to keep it with him when it was a complete form.

It is thus shown that it is prohibited even to keep forms whose making is prohibited .

And we answer: There

in the incident involving Rav Yehuda, it was

his seal

on his seal—the seal of Rav Yehuda on his ring was

The seal on Rabbi Yehuda’s ring

raised,

that is, its form protruded,

and

it was prohibited to leave it in his possession

because of suspicion,

lest they suspect him of keeping it for the purpose of idolatry, since the gentiles kept only raised forms for the purpose of idolatry. [And the Gemara will explain later why there is no “suspicion” concerning Rabban Gamaliel’s forms.]

And from where do we say that the Sages were concerned about this “suspicion”?

As it was taught

we learned in a beraita: A

ring

with a prohibited form,

whose seal is raised—

it is prohibited to place it

on his finger because of the suspicion that he keeps it for the purpose of idolatry,

but it is permitted to seal with it

inside wax, in the manner in which they sealed in their times, for when he seals, the seal sinks into the wax and its form is not visible from outside, and by the act of sealing he does not transgress the prohibition of making forms, because the gentiles did not worship sunken forms. And if

its seal is sunken—

it is permitted to place it

on his finger, and there is no suspicion concerning it that he keeps it for the purpose of idols,

but it is prohibited to seal with it,

since by sealing he makes a raised form.

Therefore Shmuel told him to destroy its form because of suspicion, and not because of the prohibition of making forms.

And we challenge:

Do we indeed suspect

and did the Sages suspect, concerning forms that were not made for the purpose of idols,

because of suspicion,

that those who see him would suspect that he made them for the purpose of idols?!

But

yet

the synagogue

the synagogue

that was displaced and settled in Nehardea [“Displaced and settled” is the name of a place in the city of Nehardea in Babylonia. And some explain: King Jeconiah of Judah and the exiles who were exiled with him to Babylonia took with them stones from Jerusalem and its earth, and built there a synagogue, to fulfill what is stated [Psalms 102], “For Your servants take pleasure in her stones and cherish her dust.” And it was called the synagogue of Displaced—for it was displaced from its place—and Settled—for it settled in Nehardea]

“Uprooted and settled” is the name of a place in the Babylonian city of Nehardea. Others explain that Jeconiah, king of Judah, and the exiles who were taken with him to Babylonia brought stones and earth from Jerusalem and built the synagogue there, fulfilling the verse [Psalms 102]: “For Your servants cherish her stones and favor her dust.” It was called the synagogue that was “uprooted”—shaf—and “settled”—veyativ—in Nehardea]

in which they set up

they set up there

a monument,

an image of the likeness of the king—

And they would enter it

and enter it [in tractate Rosh Hashana:

Rav and Shmuel,

Shmuel’s father and Levi, and they would pray inside it

and pray in it—

and they did not suspect because of suspicion

they did not suspect that people would suspect them of entering it for the purpose of idolatry.

It is thus shown that the Sages did not prohibit things on account of “suspicion,” that those who saw them would suspect them of idolatry?

And we answer: There were many people present in that place, and

the many are different

the law is different, because when there are many, people do not suspect.

And we challenge:

But

yet

Rabban Gamaliel—

he was an individual,

so how did he keep forms of moons—and even though gentiles made them for him, nevertheless it is prohibited to keep forms because of “suspicion” ?

And we answer: Rabban Gamaliel,

since he was the Nasi,

many people were frequently with him

many people were present with him, and his law was like that of the many, and there was no suspicion concerning him.

And if you wish, say:

and if you wish, say: The forms of moons that Rabban Gamaliel had

were of segments,

made of segments, and they were not complete forms, but only when they were joined.

And Rabban Gamaliel joined them only at the time of examining the witnesses, while on the other days they were disassembled and were not seen; therefore there was no prohibition of suspicion concerning them.

And if you wish, say:

and if you wish, say: The prohibition of making forms, learned from what is stated, “You shall not make with Me,” applies only when one makes them for adornment, but if one makes them in order

to learn,

as Rabban Gamaliel did, to learn from them and examine the witnesses—

the case is different

and it is permitted.

And the Gemara brings an example of this from the laws concerning passing a son to Molech, a soothsayer, a diviner, an enchanter, and the abominations of the gentiles—

As it was taught,

we learned in a beraita: The Torah said [Deuteronomy 18]: “For you are coming to the land that the Lord your God gives you—you shall not learn to do according to the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you one who passes his son or daughter through fire, a caster of spells, an observer of times, a diviner, or a sorcerer.” And we expound: It is stated,

“You shall not learn to do,”

the Torah prohibited only learning these things in order to do them—

but you may learn in order to understand

how corrupt their deeds are,

and to instruct

your sons which deeds and abominations of the gentiles are prohibited.

We learned in our Mishna:

Rabban Shimon ben Gamaliel says: Those upon the honored—

are prohibited; those upon the despised—

are permitted .

The Gemara explains which are honored and which are disgraced.

Which are honored and which are disgraced?

Rav said: Honored

when the figures are

above the water

at the rim of the vessel;

disgraced—

when the figures are

below the water

at the bottom of the vessel and on its sides.

And Shmuel said: These and those are disgraced

since they are vessels for eating and drinking.

Rather, which are honored:

figures that are on ornaments, such as

those on bracelets

bracelets

and on nose-rings and on rings.

Tanya

we learned in a beraita

in accordance with him

like

the words of Shmuel: Honored—those on bracelets, and on nose-rings, and on rings.

Disgraced—those on cauldrons and on kettles

small metal pots

and on water-heaters, and those on sheets, and on cloths.

The version of Rabbenu Hananel:

coins.

Mishna:

Our Mishna is a continuation of the preceding Mishna, where it was stated that the disposal of idolatry is by taking it to the Dead Sea. And Rabbi Yosei maintains that it is not necessary to take it to the Dead Sea, but that it is possible to dispose of it in other ways.

Rabbi Yosei says: He grinds

the idol made of metal

and scatters

the ground-up pieces

to the wind, or casts it into the sea

so that Israel will not come to stumble through deriving benefit from it.

They said to him

the Sages:

Even it

if he scatters it to the wind, there is benefit from it, because

it becomes fertilizer

to fertilize the fields,

as it is stated [

the version of the Bach:

and it is stated] [

Deuteronomy 13] “

Nothing whatsoever from the proscribed matter shall cling to your hand,”

but he must take it to the Dead Sea, or dispose of it in other ways from which no benefit whatsoever will come to Israel .

Gemara:

The Gemara brings a beraita, in which the proofs that Rabbi Yosei brought for his position and the Sages’ rejection are stated.

Tanya

we learned in a beraita:

Rabbi Yosei said to them

the Sages:

But has it not already

been stated [Deuteronomy 9]: Moses our teacher recounts to the generation entering the Land of Israel the incident of the Golden Calf,