Avodah Zarah 2b — the Talmud in English

as it is stated

in the continuation of the verse

“and nations shall gather.”

At first: “they assembled together,” and afterward, “nations shall gather” .

And “nation” means only a kingdom

when it is by itself, as

it is stated

to Rebecca [Genesis 25]

“and one nation shall be stronger than the other”

[the kingdom of Jacob and the kingdom of Esau will strive to prevail, one over the other].

Before the Gemara continues to bring the continuation of the statement, the Gemara raises an objection:

Is there a deficiency in the fact that the nations come in a confused manner?

And is there

such a thing as

confusion before

before

the Holy One, blessed is He?!

But surely all human beings are surveyed before Him in a single survey, each one individually, even when they are mixed together, as it is stated [Psalms 33]: “He Who fashions their hearts together.”

And we answer: Indeed, confusion does not apply before the Holy One, blessed is He,

but

the will of the Holy One, blessed is He, is that they should not come together,

so that

in such a manner

they should not become mixed with one another,

so that they should not become mixed among themselves,

so that they will hear,

in order that they hear

what He says to them.

For the Holy One, blessed is He, wishes to argue with each nation separately, as will be explained below, and when they are mixed together their arguments become confused.

And now the Gemara brings the continuation of the statement.

Immediately there enters before Him

before the Holy One, blessed is He,

the kingdom of Rome, first.

What is the reason

that Rome is first?

Because it is important,

for it is the most important kingdom of them all.

And from where do we know that it is important?

For it is written

[Daniel 7], in the dream that Daniel dreamed concerning the four beasts, which were compared to the four nations of the world. And concerning the last, fourth beast it is stated:

“and it shall devour the entire earth, and trample it, and crush it,”

that it will destroy the entire earth, trample it, and crush it thoroughly.

And to which nation does it allude?

Rabbi Yohanan said: This is

the kingdom of

guilty Rome,

the wicked one,

whose influence

[its authority]

went forth throughout the entire world,

for the entire world listens to its voice. And this is its importance.

And the Gemara explains:

And from where do we know,

from where do we know

that one who is important

for whoever is more important

enters first,

enters first for judgment before the Holy One, blessed is He?

When

Rav

Ḥisda

said concerning the judgment of Rosh Hashanah:

For Rav Ḥisda said: A king and the community

who are about to enter for judgment—

the king enters first for judgment, as it is stated

[I Kings 8], in Solomon’s prayer at the dedication of the Temple,

“to execute the judgment of His servant, and the judgment of His people Israel.”

And when King Solomon said “His servant,” his intention was himself, for he was the king. It follows that the judgment of the king is conducted first, before the judgment of the people.

And the reason, what is it?

If you wish, say:

since

it is not proper conduct,

this is not proper conduct

to seat the king,

to seat the king

outside,

outside, so that he should sit outside and wait until the judgment of the people is completed.

And if you wish, say:

it is preferable to judge the king first

, before the anger increases,

before there increases

the wrath

of the Holy One, blessed is He, because of the sins of the community, lest, Heaven forbid, He exact retribution from the king for all his sins, because of His wrath over the sins of the community.

And therefore the wicked kingdom of Rome enters first, just as a king enters first because of his importance .

The Holy One, blessed is He, said to them

to Rome:

“With what have you occupied yourselves?”

With what do you think to be entitled in the judgment, and what have you done in every generation?

They say before Him: Master of the Universe! We established many marketplaces, we made many bathhouses, we increased much silver and gold!

And all of them, we did not make

for ourselves alone,

but for Israel, so that they might occupy themselves with Torah.

For in the marketplaces the Israelites have the possibility of earning a livelihood, and likewise they easily find their food and their other needs in the marketplaces that we established, and as a result they have leisure to study Torah. And in the bathhouses that we made, the Israelites have the possibility of delighting themselves in the bathhouses.

The Holy One, blessed is He, said to them: Fools of the world!

Everything that you did—

you did for your own needs

and not for the sake of Israel—

“You established marketplaces—

to seat prostitutes in them!”

You established

bathhouses—

to delight yourselves in them.

And as for the silver and gold that you increased—surely

the silver and gold are Mine. As it is stated

[Haggai 2]

“Mine is the silver and Mine is the gold, declares the Lord of Hosts.”—

Is there anyone among you who can declare “this,”

[and this is the continuation of the verse,

as it is stated, “Who among you

can declare this”?]

And “this”

means nothing other than Torah, as it is stated

[Deuteronomy 4]

“And this is the Torah that Moses placed.”

Did you occupy yourselves with the Torah of Moses!

Immediately,

when they heard the words of the Holy One, blessed is He,

they went out

the Romans from the judgment

in dejection,

in sorrow and shame.

The kingdom of Rome went out, and the kingdom of Persia entered after it.

What is the reason?

Why did Persia come after Rome?

For

it is

important afterward,

important after Rome.

And from where do we know

and from where do we know this?

For it is written

there, in Daniel’s dream:

“And behold

[and there was]

another beast, a second one

[another beast, second]

resembling

[similar]

a bear.”

And

which is that beast that was compared to a bear?

Rav Yosef taught: These are the Persians, who eat and drink

much

like a bear, and are swathed

in flesh

wrapped in fat

like a bear, and grow hair like a bear, and have no rest like a bear,

for it has no rest, and it goes and comes constantly.

The Holy One, blessed is He, said to them

to the Persians:

“With what have you occupied yourselves

in every generation, and with what merit do you come to judgment?”

They say before Him: Master of the Universe! We built many bridges, we conquered many fortified cities,

large towns,

we waged many wars,

and all of them, we did not do

for our own needs,

but for Israel, so that they might occupy themselves with Torah!

The Holy One, blessed is He, said to them:

You did not do it for Israel, but

everything that you did—

you did for your own needs! You established bridges—

to take tolls from them,

which the kingdom collected from those traveling over the bridges. You conquered

fortified cities—

to impose forced labor in them,

the king’s service, so that the inhabitants of the conquered fortified cities would become soldiers and give their animals to your kingdom.

Wars—

I made, as it is stated

[Exodus 15]

“The Lord is a man of war.”—

Is there anyone among you who can declare “this,” as it is stated

“Who among you can declare this?” And “this” means nothing other than Torah, as it is stated, “And this is the Torah that Moses placed.”

Immediately they went out from before Him in dejection.

And the Gemara raises an objection: Why did the kingdom of Persia enter for judgment, and what new thing did it introduce in its claims?

And since,

for surely since

it saw

that it saw

the kingdom of Persia [see] the kingdom of Rome, that nothing whatsoever avails,

for their justification was not accepted at all—

for what reason did it enter,

why did it enter to present its claim?!

And we answer: Nevertheless, it entered, thinking that it had an advantage over the kingdom of Rome—

They said,

the Persians said to themselves:

They

the Romans

destroyed

the

Temple,

and therefore the Holy One, blessed is He, rebuked them, whereas

we

are the ones who

built it,

we gave permission to the Israelites in the days of Cyrus to build the Temple. And therefore they thought that indeed they could request reward.

And the Gemara continues to describe the Day of Judgment in the future.

And likewise with every nation

that entered before Him for judgment .

And we raise an objection: After they saw that the Holy One, blessed is He, did not accept the justifications of the Romans and the Persians, why do the other nations enter?—

And since,

for surely after

they saw

that they saw

the earlier ones,

their predecessors,

that nothing whatsoever avails,

for their justification was not accepted at all—

for what reason do they enter,

why do they enter?!

And we answer:

They think

they reason that only

these,

these two nations, Rome and Persia,

enslaved Israel,

enslaved Israel—the Persians during the Babylonian exile, and the Romans during the exile of Titus, and the Israelites are still subjugated to them.

But

if

we

are concerned,

we did not enslave Israel.

And we raise an objection against the author of the statement—Rabbi Hanina bar Pappa, or Rav Simlai.

What is different,

in what are different

these

these two kingdoms, Rome and Persia,

which are important,

that the author of the statement specified them, and their claims and justifications,

, and what is different about these, which are not important to him,

why does he not specify the other nations , their claims and their justifications?

And we answer:

Because these

these two

continue in their kingdoms,

their kingdoms continue

until the Messiah

comes,

and he will subdue them to the rule of the Holy One, blessed is He.

And therefore the author of the statement specified them and recounted in detail their argument with the Holy One, blessed is He, but the other kingdoms—their sovereignty has been annulled [and although the Holy One, blessed is He, will judge them!], and they are not important enough to specify them.

And the Gemara continues the statement and says:

After the Holy One, blessed is He, says to them, “Who among you can declare this?”—

They say before Him: Master of the Universe! Did You give us

the Torah

and we did not accept it?!

And why did You come with a claim against us that there is no one among us who can declare “this”?

And concerning this the Gemara raises an objection:

And can they say this?!

How can they make such a claim, when it is not true?!

The Gemara brings the words of Rabbi Yohanan, that indeed the nations of the world did not wish to accept the Torah.

But it is written

[Deuteronomy 33], in the blessing of Moses our teacher to the Israelites:

“And he said: The Lord came from Sinai, and He shone forth from Seir for them.

He appeared from Mount Paran.”

“The Lord came from Sinai” means to Mount Sinai, and before He reached Sinai, He shone forth in Seir, and appeared from Mount Paran.

And

it is further written [Habakkuk 3], in the prayer of the prophet Habakkuk,

“God shall come from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran forever.”

And one must ask:

What did He seek

what did the Holy One, blessed is He, want

in Seir, and what did He seek in Paran? That is to say, why did He come there?

That is, why did He go there?

Rabbi Yohanan said: This teaches that the Holy One, blessed is He, offered

the Torah

to every nation and tongue, and they did not accept it,

they did not wish to accept the Torah,

until He came to Israel—

and they accepted it.

But if so, how do they say, “Did You give it to us, and we did not accept it?”!

Therefore the Gemara says that they say something else:

Rather, this is what they say,

this is what they say:

“Did we

perhaps

accept it and not fulfill it?”

That is to say, since we did not accept it, therefore we did not fulfill it.

But the Gemara is astonished: What claim is this? For by this claim itself they provide a refutation of their words:

And for this, their refutation.

This is their “break.” That is to say, this answer is an indictment against them, for indeed, why did they not accept the Torah?

Therefore the Gemara establishes their claim in another manner:

Rather, this is what they say before Him: Master of the Universe! Did You

perhaps

force the mountain over us like a vat

of reward

and we did not accept it?! As You did to Israel!

And had You forced the Torah upon us, we would have accepted it!

And from where do we derive that the Holy One, blessed is He, forced the Torah upon the Israelites?

For it is written

[Exodus 19], at the standing at Mount Sinai,

“And they stood

[the Israelites]

at the foot of the mountain,” and

we expound “at the foot” literally, according to its plain meaning—

Rav Dimi bar Hama said: This teaches that

the Holy One, blessed is He, uprooted the mountain,

and the Holy One, blessed is He, forced

upon them

the mountain

of Sinai

like a vat, and said to them

to the Israelites:

“If you accept the Torah—

it is well; but if not—

there,

beneath the mountain

will be your burial!”

Immediately,

when the nations made this claim, “Did You force the mountain over us like a vat?”—

the Holy One, blessed is He, says to them: “Let the first things be brought forth by us. As it is stated

[there, in the continuation of the verse]

“And let them bring forth the first things,”

that is to say,

the seven commandments that you accepted—

where did you fulfill them?

For even what you indeed accepted, you did not fulfill; so why have you come to request reward?

And the Gemara explains:

And from where,

from where do we learn

that they did not fulfill them?

For Rav Yosef taught:

It is stated in the Book of Habakkuk [there]:

“He stood and measured the earth; he saw and released the nations,”

and we expound “he saw” in the sense of “it appeared in his eyes” —

what did he see?

He saw

the Holy One, blessed be He,

seven commandments that they had accepted upon themselves,

upon themselves,

the children of Noah,

the nations of the world —

but they did not fulfill them.

And

since they did not fulfill them —

He arose and released them from them,

and they are no longer obligated to fulfill them. And we raise an objection: Did the Holy One, blessed be He, permit them?

Did He make them profit?!

Will they profit from the fact that they did not fulfill them?

If so, have we found a sinner profiting?