Avodah Zarah 2b (ב:) — the Talmud in English

As it is stated

in the continuation of the verse,

“And nations shall assemble.”

Initially, “they gathered together,” and afterward, “nations shall assemble.”

And “nation” means nothing other than a kingdom

when it stands alone, as

it is stated

to Rebecca [Genesis 25],

“And one nation shall be mightier than the other” [the kingdom of Jacob and the kingdom of Esau will strive to prevail, one over the other].

Before the Gemara continues to cite the remainder of the statement, the Gemara raises a difficulty:

Is there indeed a deficiency in the fact that the nations come in a confused mass?

Is there

such a thing as

confusion before

the

Holy One, blessed be He?!

But surely all human beings are surveyed before Him in a single glance, each one individually, even when they are mixed together, as it is stated [Psalms 33], “He Who fashions their hearts together.”

And we answer: Indeed, confusion does not apply before the Holy One, blessed be He;

rather

the will of the Holy One, blessed be He, is that they should not come together,

so that

in such a manner

they will not be mixed with one another,

so that they will not intermingle among themselves,

so that they will hear

in order to hear

what He says to them.

For the Holy One, blessed be He, wishes to argue with each nation separately, as will be explained below; and when they are mixed together, their arguments become confused.

Now the Gemara cites the continuation of the statement.

Immediately, there enters before Him

before the Holy One, blessed be He,

the kingdom of Rome, first.

What is the reason

why does Rome come first?

Because it is important,

as it is the most important kingdom of them all.

And from where do we know that it is important?

As it is written [Daniel 7],

in the dream that Daniel dreamed concerning the four beasts, which symbolized the four nations of the world. Concerning the last, fourth beast, it is stated:

“It shall devour the entire earth, trample it, and crush it,”

destroying the entire earth, trampling it, and crushing it thoroughly.

And which nation does this allude to?

Rabbi Yohanan said: This is

the

wicked kingdom of Rome,

the evil one,

whose influence

upon its subjects

has spread throughout the entire world,

as the entire world heeds its voice. And this is the reason for its importance.

And the Gemara explains:

And from where do we know

that

one who is important

—for one who is more important—

enters first,

entering first for judgment before the Holy One, blessed be He?

When

Rabbi

Ḥisda

said this with regard to the judgment of Rosh Hashanah.

For Rabbi Ḥisda said: When a king and the community

are about to enter for judgment—

the king enters first for judgment, as it is stated

[I Kings 8], in Solomon’s prayer at the dedication of the Temple,

“To execute justice for His servant, and justice for His people Israel.”

When King Solomon said “His servant,” he was referring to himself, for he was the king. Thus, the king’s judgment is conducted first, before the judgment of the people.

And what is the reason?

If you wish, say

that since

it is not proper,

it is not respectful

to seat the king

to have the king sit

outside,

sitting outside and waiting until the judgment of the people is completed.

And if you wish, say

that it is preferable to judge the king first,

before it increases,

before the

wrath

of the Holy One, blessed be He, increases because of the sins of the community—for perhaps, Heaven forbid, He will punish the king for all his sins, because of His wrath over the sins of the community.

And therefore the wicked kingdom of Rome enters first, just as a king enters first because of his importance.

The Holy One, blessed be He, said to them

to Rome:

“With what were you occupied?”

On what do you think you can rely to be acquitted in judgment, and what did you do in every generation?

They say before Him: Master of the Universe! We established many marketplaces, we built many bathhouses, and we increased much silver and gold!

And all of them, we did not establish

for ourselves alone,

but for Israel, so that they might engage in Torah.

For in the marketplaces, Israel had the opportunity to earn a livelihood, and likewise they could easily obtain their food and other needs in the marketplaces that we established. Consequently, they had time to study Torah. And in the bathhouses that we built, Israel had the opportunity to enjoy themselves in the bathhouses.

The Holy One, blessed be He, said to them: Fools of the world!

Everything that you did—

you did for your own needs

and not for the sake of Israel—

“You established marketplaces—

to station prostitutes in them!”

You established

bathhouses—

to indulge yourselves in them.

And as for the fact that you increased silver and gold—surely

the silver and gold are Mine, as it is stated

[Haggai 2],

“Mine is the silver and Mine is the gold, declares the Lord of Hosts.”

Does anyone among you declare “this,”

[which is the continuation of the verse,

as it is stated, “Who among you

shall declare this,”

and “this” means nothing other than

Torah, as it is stated

[Deuteronomy 4],

“And this is the Torah that Moses placed”?

Did you engage in the Torah of Moses?!

Immediately,

when they heard the words of the Holy One, blessed be He,

they left

the Romans left the judgment

in utter dismay,

in distress and shame.

The kingdom of Rome left, and the kingdom of Persia entered after it.

What is the reason?

Why did Persia come after Rome?

For

it is

important afterward,

important after Rome.

And from where do we know this,

and from where do we know that?

As it is written

there, in Daniel’s dream:

“And behold

[there was]

another beast, a second one,

another beast, the second one,

resembling

something similar

to a bear.”

And

which beast was that, which was compared to a bear?

Rav Yosef taught: These are the Persians, who eat and drink

a great deal

like a bear, and are encumbered

with flesh,

wrapped in fat

like a bear, and grow hair like a bear, and have no rest like a bear,

which has no rest and constantly goes back and forth.

The Holy One, blessed be He, said to them

to the Persians:

“With what were you occupied”

in every generation, and on what merit do you come to judgment?

They say before Him: Master of the Universe! We built many bridges, we conquered many cities,

large towns,

we waged many wars,

and all of them, we did not do

for our own needs,

but for Israel, so that they might engage in Torah!

The Holy One, blessed be He, said to them:

You did not do this for Israel, but

everything that you did—

you did for your own needs! You established bridges—

in order to collect tolls from them,

the taxes that the government collected from those traveling over the bridges. You conquered

cities—

to impose forced labor on them,

the king’s service, meaning that the inhabitants of the conquered cities would serve in the army and provide their animals to your kingdom.

Wars—

I made them, as it is stated

[Exodus 15],

“The Lord is a Man of war.”—

Does anyone among you declare “this,” as it is stated,

“Who among you shall declare this?” And “this” means nothing other than Torah, as it is stated, “And this is the Torah that Moses placed.”

Immediately, they left His presence in utter dismay.

And the Gemara raises a difficulty: Why did the kingdom of Persia enter for judgment, and what new point did it add to its claims?

But once

surely, since

it saw

that

the kingdom of Persia saw that the kingdom of Rome had gained nothing whatsoever,

as their defense was not accepted at all—

why did it enter,

why did it enter to present its claim?!

And we answer: Nevertheless, it entered, thinking that it had an advantage over the kingdom of Rome—

They said,

the Persians said to themselves:

They,

the Romans,

destroyed

the

Temple,

and therefore the Holy One, blessed be He, rebuked them; whereas

we

gave permission to the people of Israel

to build it,

as Cyrus permitted them to build the Temple. And therefore they thought that they could indeed request reward.

The Gemara continues to describe the Day of Judgment in the future.

And likewise with regard to every nation

that enters before Him for judgment.

And we raise a difficulty: After they saw that the Holy One, blessed be He, did not accept the defenses of the Romans and the Persians, why do the other nations enter?

But once

surely, after

they saw

that

their predecessors

had seen

that they gained nothing whatsoever,

as their defense was not accepted at all—

why did they enter,

why do they enter?!

And we answer:

They thought

that only

those,

those two nations, Rome and Persia,

enslaved Israel,

the Persians during the Babylonian exile and the Romans during the exile under Titus, and Israel is still subjugated to them.

But

as for

us,

we

did not enslave Israel.

And we raise a difficulty against the author of the statement—Rabbi Ḥanina bar Pappa or Rav Simlai.

What is different,

in what way are

these

two kingdoms, Rome and Persia,

important,

that the author of the statement specified them, their claims, and their defenses,

and what is different about these, which he did not consider important,

that he does not specify the other nations or their claims and defenses?

And we answer:

Because these

two,

continue in their sovereignty

their kingdoms endure

until the

Messiah comes,

when he will subjugate them to the dominion of the Holy One, blessed be He.

Therefore the author of the statement specified them and described their debate with the Holy One, blessed be He, in detail. But as for the other kingdoms—their sovereignty has been nullified [even though the Holy One, blessed be He, will judge them!], and they are not important enough to specify them.

The Gemara continues the statement and says:

After the Holy One, blessed be He, says to them, “Who among you shall declare this”—

They say before Him: Master of the Universe! Did You give us

the Torah

and we did not accept it?!

Why, then, do You claim against us that there is no one among us who declares “this”?

And concerning this the Gemara raises a difficulty:

Can they say this?!

How can they make such a claim, when it is not true?!

The Gemara cites the statement of Rabbi Yohanan, that the nations of the world indeed did not wish to accept the Torah.

But is it not written

[Deuteronomy 33], in the blessing Moses our teacher gave Israel:

“And he said: The Lord came from Sinai, and dawned upon them from Seir;

He appeared from Mount Paran.”

“The Lord came from Sinai” means that He came to Mount Sinai; and before He came to Sinai, He dawned upon Seir and appeared from Mount Paran.

And

it is further written [Habakkuk 3], in the prayer of the prophet Habakkuk:

“God shall come from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran forever.”

And one must ask:

What did He seek,

what did the Holy One, blessed be He, want

in Seir, and what did He seek in Paran?

That is, why did He go there?

Rabbi Yohanan said: This teaches that the Holy One, blessed be He, carried the Torah

to

every nation and language, but they did not accept it;

they did not wish to accept the Torah,

until He came to Israel—

and they accepted it.

If so, it is difficult: How could they say, “Did You give it to us, and we did not accept it”?

Therefore, the Gemara says that they said something else:

Rather, this is what they said,

this is what they say:

Did we

perhaps

accept it and fail to fulfill it?

That is, since we did not accept it, we therefore did not fulfill it.

But the Gemara wonders: What sort of claim is this? This claim itself refutes their words:

And concerning this, their refutation.

This is their “break”; that is, this answer itself is an indictment of them, for indeed, why did they not accept the Torah?

Therefore, the Gemara presents their claim in another manner:

Rather, this is what they say before Him: Master of the Universe! Did You force the mountain over us like a tub

—did You force upon us the Torah as a condition of reward—

and we did not accept it?! As You did with Israel!

of reward

—as You did with Israel!

And had You forced the Torah upon us, we would have accepted it!

And from where do we derive that the Holy One, blessed be He, forced the Torah upon the people of Israel?

As it is written

[Exodus 19], at the revelation at Mount Sinai:

“And they stood

the people of Israel

at the bottom of the mountain,” and

we expound “at the bottom” literally, according to its straightforward meaning—

Rav Dimi bar Ḥama said: This teaches that

the Holy One, blessed be He, uprooted the mountain

and the Holy One, blessed be He, forced

upon them the

mountain

of Sinai

like a tub, and said to them

to the people of Israel:

“If you accept the Torah—

it is well, but if not—

there,

beneath the mountain,

will be your burial!”

Immediately,

when the nations made this claim, “Did You force the mountain over us like a tub?”—

the Holy One, blessed be He, says to them: Let them present the earlier matters. As it is stated

[there, in the continuation of the verse],

“And let them present the earlier matters,”

that is,

the seven mitzvot that you accepted—

where did you fulfill them?

For even what you did accept, you did not fulfill; why, then, have you come to request reward?

And the Gemara explains:

And from where do we derive this,

from where do we learn

that they did not fulfill them?

As Rav Yosef taught:

It is stated in the book of Habakkuk [there]:

“He stood and measured the earth; He saw and released the nations,”

and we expound “He saw” as an expression of “it appeared in his eyes” —

What did He see?

He saw

the Holy One, blessed be He,

the seven commandments that the descendants of Noah had accepted upon themselves,

for themselves,

the descendants of Noah,

the nations of the world —

but they did not fulfill them.

And

since they did not fulfill them —

He arose and released them from them,

and they were no longer obligated to fulfill them. And we raise an objection: Did the Holy One, blessed be He, really release them from those commandments?

! Was this a challenge to Him?

Would they benefit from the fact that they did not fulfill them?

If so, have we found a sinner being rewarded?